You still don't get it, do you? Let me try to put it this way. Just because some other community does it, does it mean that we should not condemn Islamic terrorists? Didn't you read it properly when I said 'I will condemn anyone who kills in the name of religion'? If he is a Moslem fanatic, Jewish fanatic, Hindu fanatic, or Christian fanatic - it doesn't matter. All those sons of bitches are the same to me. But we all know who does it again and again but people like you are in a state of denial.
According to Islamic law (sharia law), "Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death"..."Islam orders apostates to be killed"..."Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed"...(American Thinker) Do you believe Islamic law (sharia law) is unislamic as well? I hope so.
I hope, this thread is in discussion mood not in debating mood. Either muslim or non muslim. We should respect each other. Ask if you really want to know. Ask with heart, sincerely. Yes, actually this is the actual verse translation
No you aren't. You can rightly distinguish on the happenings around the media and the world. You are a true Christian and a good reader of Bible in right context.
I am a Muslim and there are billions of innocents like me who never know why TERRORISTS claim that they are Muslims. I and all Muslims STRONGLY CONDEMN WHOEVER CREATES TERROR among humans either be a Muslim or non-Muslim. I am are really frustrated and furious like you all when Humanity and Humans killed in the name of Terror for no reasons. And really really ashamed when someone do this in the name of Islam or Muslim Only thing beyond everything is we are all humans and what ever the principle we follow, religion we belong, ideologies we adopt; United We Stand. Our principles and followings should never hurt the other humans... We are all here to lead a peaceful life. My humble request, "Please never Judge a Car by its Driver and Never Judge Islam by its followers." Thanks for all
i have always wanted to ask this question. It seems to me that if you want to defeat the terrorists and the esterimist, you must defeat their idiology. Yet people go around and spend time to find arguments from islam that agrees with what the terrorists want to project. I would have thought that a better approach would be to try to prove them wrong. finding passages that prach against the violence should be used to defeat the terrorist idiological base. why?
I don't know if you're talking to me or not. It's fine with me if people can find Islamic teachings that preach against violence. Good idea, go ahead. Teachings aside, I see overwhelming evidence that Islam allows and encourages brutal repression of women. I guess my question to the OP is this; Why don't reasonable Muslims work more strenuously to eradicate the brutal repression of women in Islam? Why aren't Islamic leaders ostracized when they practice these things. Why was a leader in Pakistan given a prominent government post after having murdered two young women who wanted to choose their own husbands? Why don't I hear more voices against these people and their offenses against their own God?
Let me get this straight... if it isn't in the Quran then the practice, the occurrence of which is documented out the wazoo, doesnt happen? LOL. Reality check time. I dont read the Koran/Quran or however you spell it this week... I'm a non-fiction reader. OTOH a quick check on Google News can verify the oppression of women in Islamic culture. Dont toss in silly roadblock arguments to deny something you know damn well is a fact. Why make these claims if you do not show evidence? Get real... we could shut down the forum by posting every link available that shows women are 2nd class citizens in Islamic culture, and you know it.
There's no scarcity of news reports on women being brutalized by Islamic men. If you claim not to know about it, you are in denial. If it's not from the Quran, why not acknowledge it and speak out against it? Wouldn't the Muslim community be more likely to listen to criticism from within than from without? Or is this your attitude because you believe brutality against women is acceptable?
In the past, some Catholic priests have been charged with molesting young choir boys. It doesn't mean they're all at it, and that Catholocism encourages it.
I do speak out against it, it is barbaric and rediculous. Don't tell me i'm in denial, it happens. But your logic fails, it really does. Your argument is: Some Muslim men treat women bad therefore Islam encourages brutal opression of women. lmao, it is almost laughable. In America, some people shoot other people, therefore America encourages people to shoot each other. "In America, some people believe all black people should be hanged, therefore America encourages all black people to be hanged." Oh you funny thing.
Not funny at all. Your reference to laughter is a technique used to diminish the significance of the issue, and indicates a lack of respect for women. In the USA we have managed to decrease hangings of black people dramatically, it used to be very common, but for a long time now it's extremely rare. It happened through a combination of law enforcement and public opinion. Try it, over a period of time, it tends to work. I keep hearing of women being stoned to death, flogged, maimed, beaten, etc. worldwide on an ongoing basis. My argument is that way too many Muslim men and Muslim religious leaders practice brutality against women. Because the religious leaders are often involved, the religion is allowing, encouraging and participating in it. For example, stoning and public floggings aren't being done by family members alone, they are arranged by religious leaders. Family members tend to go for private beatings and honor killings. Can you give me an example of a husband who was prosecuted for beating his wife in an Islamic country? Can you give me an example of a rape victim in an Islamic country being treated with respect while the rapist was punished? Can you give me an example of an honor killing in an Islamic country where the murderer was tried and found guilty?
Hello all, I would now like to respond to some of the comments stated now but before I do, I would like to simply give a small lesson on Islamic rulings and teachings. There are 2 primary sources by which muslims derive teaching. The quran which has been untouched and many historians will attest to that. Also, the sunnah which based on hadith or sayings of the prophet, on whom be peace. So there are aspects that are not mentioned in the quran that are followed based on hadith. However, hadith do have problems. As it can be imagined, later people would fabricate hadith for their own purposes or simply report them wrong. Thus, hadith are fallible while quran is infallible according to islamic perspective. I think this point will guide our discussion from now on. Let me now address some of the posts. I am not sure you understand what I said. I am not denying that these practices may take place in some countries. As far as I am concerned that is totally irrelevant to the discussion about Islam. The burden of proof is on you to show some authentic sources to justify your statements. I don't want to see some Saudi Wahabbi cleric either. Show me some credible scholars. I can think of other countries that have oppressive things as well. Should I say that coups and raping is common in Africa because they are backward and stupid people? The middle east is still a developing area and has a ways to go. I will be the first to condemn many of these practices. I regret to say that this post lacks the scholarly detail necessary for a good perspective. Just taking a look at your source, it is not very credible. I found some of their information on that site dead wrong but they persist spreading lies. Now to address these points. The first two points of you made did not quite address how these people get accused and the process. The process ensures that four credible witnesses are found to make sure that the adultery took place. I also suspect that this is done for purposes of promiscuous parties and things like this. I think people dont quite understand the basis of sharia law. First off, it is applicable to muslim societies only and even non-muslim areas that are under islamic control are not affected by such things. Next, it incorporates religious morals into its rulings. The things such as defensive wars and other restrictive measures must be incorporated. It attempts to eradicated the bad elements of society just as all governement does. The US govt today has severe punishment for drug sales, murder, rape and child porn. These are all elements of society that noone wants. Except, unfortunately, there is nothing wrong with adultery and divorce in todays culture. It is making kids grow up on the streets and to become more jailed citizens. In fact, because of these measures, islamic states have had less crime than most western nations. As for the issue of apostasy. It is regrettable that you imply that is an absolute ruling. In fact, I find this ruling rather questionable and out of historic context. If you recall the early islamic era, it was a rather divided country where groups were constantly in conflict. This situation was very real when our prophet muhammad, on whom be peace was spreading his message. People were bound to oppose him. It seemed more like a relgious than political battle. Sometimes people would apostate and join the enemies and this is likely where the historical context is. Some other scholars have argued that it is a latter innovation and is not an issue. I am also not going to deny that are Islamic scholars who do punish for apostasy in this way. However, I do not fully agree with them. Thank you for your question. I fully agree with you. However, I am of the opinion that these people are not really coming from religious roots. I think it is a tool to get more members. They make you think you're becoming a martyr and so you are willing to die. Just derive the english translation from Al-Qadea, "arab toilet." These people are getting sick of the US in their nation and want them gone. Just as if you had Arabs on your coasts you'd get mad. They want the west gone. To be honest, I have never lived in an islamic country so I don't know what its like. But its mainly cultural. If these people really cared about Islam, they would stop most of this. I can't speak for them or tell you why either. I wish they would stand up. I could not disagree more. I think it was actually one of the best things that happened for women. It gave women the right of divorce, protection from false accusations of adultery, full property rights, rights to earn and make money. The list goes on. The burden of proof is on you. Thank you all sincerely for attempting to learn more about my religion. I welcome you to ask more questions. I will await them with alacrity.
The main reason why you don't hear of outcries from Muslims is because the media simply does not want you to hear it. I have lived in a Muslim country as a Muslim and I have my own sources, I browse discussion forums and websites where independent media exist and trust me I hear about the organizations fighting such concepts of honour killings..etc The case your pointing out is about the politician who didn't do anything against the people who committed such barbaric acts. That politician said "it's part of our culture".. He's backward as they get. I am from that country and I know how backward some of those tribal people are. Pakistan has its tribal areas which is still backwards...so you'd expect such things. Especially when the media loves to highlight it, we hear more about it. It's mostly based on backward practises most commonly found in the Hindu culture that was present in and around Pakistan which then people took and mixed with Islam. Sorry to hijack the thread kevluigi..
Burden of proof? Ummm... do you ever read the news? Is it just a coincidence that Pakistan has recently had to outlaw honor killings (oh yeah... you've never heard of those)... or that in sharia law it takes tow women to equal one man as far as testimony. Is it a personal fashion statement when Islamic women wear an outfit that'd be considered constricting by a beekeeper? Are the murders of young girls in Islamic culture for violations of the dress code or for such reprehensible moral failings as being raped or having a boy hold their hand part of a collective Google imagination? The "burden of proof" has been met by hundreds of published stories in newspapers across the globe. It has been met by the British foreign Ministry constantly imploring Islamic countries not to kill some poor kid for violating ancient traditions by marrying the young man of her choice instead of some guy the family chose, or to not kill someone for the crime of homosexuality. It has been met by a practice of letting honor killers off lighter than those without the circumstance. It has been met by a long history of women being treated as mens "property"... not as equals. "Best thing that has happened for women"? In places where Islamic law is the law of the land, barbaric practices as listed above are a matter of RECORD, not an opinion. You cannot convince anyone that Islam is peaceful given that fact. I have no reason to doubt you personally are peaceful, but given free reign, Islam fosters a barbaric outcome. There is no burden of proof required, that has been met by public record.
So robjones, let me get this straight. If we go by your logic, we can say that the American lifestyle is as barbaric/immoral as they get. Just by looking the headlines recently, two shot dead in a toys r us, 1 dead by mob attack for black friday sale, a rape occurs ever 2 minutes in America, guns, drugs, violence everywhere.. immoral behavior display on the streets. Now, looking at the "american lifestyle" by your logic, one would come to the conclusion, it's the American way of life that's at fault. oh and it's a matter of RECORD, not an opinion.
If that's something that is actually an accepted part of our culture in your view, then have that opinion. It'd be silly, but it doesnt matter to me if you wanna be silly. The things I'm talking about are part of Islamic heritage and are currently accepted practices in cultures where Islamic law is part of the legal fabric. Bit different.
My question to you was whether you believe the stoning of women for adultery, and killing people who convert to another religion, under sharia law (Islamic law) was the Islamic thing to do, and if you agreed with it. It sounds like the first answer about stoning women, would be a yes. Then the killing people for converting to another religion, would be "possibly under some circumstances", since you don't "fully" agree with it. Is that accurate?