Muhammad (s.a.s) in the Bible

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by brujj1, Dec 27, 2006.

  1. #1
    Hello everyone,

    I have been reading so many discussions about Muhammad and Jesus (may Allah's peace be on them both) in many different forums and posts that I forgot which question was asked where. I remember coming across this question "where in Bible is Muhammad (s.a.s) is mentioned?" Finally, I found a reference. If you are interested, you could take a look.

    Look at Chapter 6 in here:
    http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html
     
    brujj1, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  2. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #2
    He would have to have been a prophet to even come close to fitting the description to start off with. But facts probably don't matter in this case....

    Wasn't there already a thread on this?
     
    debunked, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  3. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #3
    #1:
    6.3 A "Paraclete" like Jesus p1

    In the Bible we can find the following four passages wherein Jesus (pbuh) predicts a great event:


    John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

    John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

    John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."

    Muhammad (pbuh), as seen above, did indeed fulfill this prophesy. Whatsoever he "HEARD" from Gabriel (The Qur'an), the same did he physically "SPEAK" to his followers. In the Qur'an we read:


    "(God swears) By the star when it falls!: Your comrade (Muhammad) errs not, nor is he deceived; Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save a revelation that is revealed (unto him)." The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):1-4

    All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.


    What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.

    All this from: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.3.html

    -----------------------------

    I must emphesize that we Muslims believe that Jesus (may Allah's peace be on him and on his mother) never stated that God was his father or that he was His son.
     
    brujj1, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  4. Dead Corn

    Dead Corn Peon

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    #4
    As opposed to the koran which was dictated from one guy in a cave. Not unlike joseph smith.

    megalomaniacs with an agenda.
     
    Dead Corn, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  5. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #5
    Great event? you mean the pentacost?

    The Holy Spirit which you know nothing of is the Comforter- I find no comfort in one who wants a non-muslim dead like mohamad.
     
    debunked, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  6. d16man

    d16man Well-Known Member

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    #6
    What I find interesting is that the author of this person is just like any other conspiracy theorist...A) one who has an answer and therefore must prove how he got that answer, which is done by twisting facts to their liking, and B) a nutjob.

    None of this proves that Muhammed was in the Bible....all it proves is that a Muslim will do anything to "think" that they are better than the rest of the world.
    Furthermore your quote "I must emphesize that we Muslims believe that Jesus (may Allah's peace be on him and on his mother) never stated that God was his father or that he was His son." is false. There are plenty of places where Jesus says that God is his Father. At one point, Jesus even uses the Arabic to call him "Daddy", which is a much more personal word than "Father". I have already proved you wrong about this in one thread brujj1, quit bringing it up. I'm tired of constantly having to prove you wrong about your so called knowledge of Christianity.
     
    d16man, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  7. Dead Corn

    Dead Corn Peon

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    #7
    Actually I do believe moho was mentioned in the Bible:

    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? v23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. v8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. v9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
     
    Dead Corn, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  8. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #8
    You just have to wonder.. Googling for "is muhammad in the Bible" yields nothing but islamic web sites answering what they feel is the obvious answer to that question.

    I ask only one question. How does someone who did not exist when the "Bible" was written end up being mentioned in the "Bible"....?

    Hmmmm.
     
    Mia, Dec 27, 2006 IP
  9. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #9
    6.7: Moses foretells of Muhammad's coming
    "I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    Deuteronomy 18:18


    There are many verses in the Old Testament that predict the coming of Jesus (pbuh). This one, however, is not one of them. This can be clearly seen from the following four points:


    a) Like unto moses

    Muslims believe in all of the previous prophets. They make no distinction between them, nor do they place one above the others in piety. However, they are all human, and as humans they differ from one another in their characteristics. Let us compare these characteristics:

    1) Both Christians and Muslims agree that both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) had fathers and mothers. They both also believe that Jesus (pbuh) had only a mother and no father. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    2) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) married and begat children. Jesus (pbuh) never married nor had any offspring. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    3) Moses (pbuh) was accepted by the Jews and to this day, as a nation, they accept him as their prophet. Muhammad (pbuh) was accepted by his people, and as a nation, over one billion Muslims around the world accept him as the prophet of Allah. Jesus (pbuh), however, was rejected by his people (the Jews) as stated in the Christian's own Bible: "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not" (John 1:11) Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    4) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were kings on Earth in the sense that they had the ultimate power of government, the power to inflict capital punishment. When the Jews brought before Moses (pbuh) the Israelite who had been caught collecting firewood on the Sabbath, Moses had him stoned to death (Numbers 15:36). Muhammad (pbuh) had similar authority. When a woman came before him confessing (with no witnesses) to having committed adultery, he gave her a chance to consider the severity of her claim and the punishment she would receive. When she insisted, he ordered her stoned to death and ordered his companions to respect her for her sincere repentance. Jesus (pbuh), however, explicitly refuted the claim that he had a kingdom on earth. When he was dragged before the Roman Governor Pontious Pilate with a charge of sedition he said: (John 18:36) "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Jesus (pbuh) would not resort to lying to save his skin. Thus, he had no earthly kingdom. Further, in John 8:1-7 we read the story of the woman who was taken in adultery by the Jews and brought before Jesus (pbuh). They were hoping to trap him by either having him contradict the laws of Moses (pbuh) by not stoning her, or by placing him in a bad position with the Roman empire by taking the law into his own hands and ordering her stoned. Jesus cleverly extracted himself from this predicament by commanding them: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." So the woman was set free. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    5) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) came with a new and comprehensive set of laws for their people. The law brought by prophet Moses was named the Judaic Law, and the law brought by prophet Muhammad was named the Shari'ah. Jesus (pbuh) however, as witnessed by Matthew, claimed to have not introduced any new laws, but to have come to renew the law of Moses (pbuh) and to have neither added nor subtracted from it. In Matthew 5:17-18 we read: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    6) Moses lead his people in a secret mass exodus from their hometown to Median in an attempt to flee the persecution of their enemies. Muhammad (pbut) too emigrated with his followers from their home town to Madinah in secret in order to flee the torture of their enemies. Jesus, however, never led his followers in a any sort of mass exodus from their hometowns . Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    7) Moses was victorious over his enemies both morally as well as physically. Pharaoh was defeated by Moses and all of his army were drowned in the sea. Muhammad (pbuh) too met his enemies in battle and defeated them all. This too was a moral as well as a physical victory. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand is claimed in the Bible to have been crucified by his enemies. Thus, his victory was only a moral one. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    8) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh), is claimed by the Christians to have died violently on the cross. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    9) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) lie buried in the ground. Jesus (pbuh), however, is claimed by the Christians to abide in heaven. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    10) Most Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is God. No Christian or Muslim, however, claims that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was God. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    11) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbuh) began their prophetic missions at the age of forty. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) began at thirty. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    12) Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) was resurrected after his death. Neither Muslims nor Christians claim that Moses or Muhammad was resurrected. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    There are many additional points that could be mentioned but we will suffice with these for now.


    b) Cannot be a Jew

    Well, is Muhammad (pbuh) the only prophet who is "Like unto Moses"? For example, what about Jesus (pbuh)? Well, we should then notice that Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew,


    "Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou (Jesus), being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?"

    John 4:9

    and the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew. We are told that in Deuteronomy:


    "And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."

    Deuteronomy 34:10


    This awaited prophet, however, must be "LIKE unto thee (Moses)." So he will come from OUTSIDE of Israel.


    c) Is from the BRETHREN of the Jews

    If this prophet can not be a Jew, then what is left? In this verse, God speaks to Moses (pbuh) about the Jews as a racial entity. The awaited prophet is claimed to not be "from the Jews" or "from among themselves" but rather "from among their (the Jew's) brethren." Who are the brethren of the Jewish nation? The Jews are the sons Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Isaac's older brother was Ishmael, the father of the Arabs. Thus, the brethren of the Jewish nation is the nation of the Arabs. This statement is further reinforced by the following definition of "Brethren" in the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible:


    "personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites."

    Muhammad in the Bible, Jamal Badawi, p. 16


    Please compare this expression with that of the Qur'an:


    "Indeed Allah has conferred a great favor upon the believers (Muslims) when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, reciting unto them His verses, purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom; although before that they were in manifest error."

    The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):164


    There has come unto you (O Muslims) a messenger from among yourselves (Muhammad, pbuh). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty, full of concern for you, for the believers [he is] full of pity, kind and merciful.

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Tawba(9):128



    d) Put my words in his mouth

    If we were to read the Qur'an we would find that it contains many verses stating "I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbia: 92, Al-Muminoon: 52), "Verily, I am Allah" (Taha: 14, Al-Namil: 9, Al-Qasas: 30), "I am thy Lord" (Taha: 19). These verses are not preceded by "I heard God say.....," or "And God said....," or similar statements which would be the words of a man transmitting the words of God, rather, their form is that of the first person who speaks of himself. Neither Muhammad (pbuh) nor any Muslim ever claimed that Muhammad (pbuh) was God, therefore, Muhammad (pbuh) was speaking with his mouth the words of God. Similarly, we can find in the Qur'an more than four hundred verses of the form "Say (O Muhammad) : ........" In other words God Almighty is putting His words into Muhammad's (pbuh) mouth and commanding him to speak them.


    We also find in the Qur'an verses which command Muhammad (pbuh) to perform a certain action, such as the opening verses of Al-Muzzamil(73), or which even go so far as to reproach Muhammad (pbuh), such as the chapter of Al-Tahreem(66) or the chapter of Abasa(80).


    Christians claim that the Bible has many "authors," and that while the "inspiration" is from God, still, the words are those of mortal men.


    Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible institute, Chicago, says on page 17 of his book "It is human, yet divine":


    "...Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."


    Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The call of the minaret":


    ".....Not so the New testament....... There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history....."


    (Both quotes have been obtained from the books of Ahmed Deedat)


    The Qur'an, however, is the book of God in both word and meaning. An example of this is a teacher who sends two students to teach what they have learned from him. The first is told to "teach them what I taught you." While the second is given a textbook written by this teacher and told to read verbatim from this book and say nothing of his own accord. The first will convey the thoughts of the teacher. The second will convey both his thoughts and his words.


    Sir William Muir says:

    "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries (at the time of this quote) with so pure a text"

    Life of Muhammad from original sources, Sir William Muir, Edinburough, J. Grant, p. xxii-xxiii


    This matter becomes clearer when studying for example the personal greetings and salutations of Paul and his friends at the ends of Titus (3:15), 2 Timothy (4:19), 1 Thessalonians (5:26) ..... etc. These words are not the word of God but the personal greetings of Paul and his friends. There are many such examples to be found in the Bible. The Qur'an contains no such verses from Muhammad (pbuh). The words of Muhammad (pbuh) are collected in a completely separate reference from the Qur'an called "The Sunnah" (or the "Hadeeth"). We notice from all this that even the Church itself does not claim that the Bible is the actual word of God, but His "inspiration" (his teachings) through the words of men. The Qur'an, however, is the actual word of God.


    "And (remember) when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'aba in Makkah), [praying]: Our Lord! Accept from us [this service]. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Hearer, the Knower. Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Relenting, the Merciful. Our Lord! And send among them a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Your verses, and shall instruct them in the Book and in wisdom and shall purify them. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Mighty, the Wise. And who desires other than the path of Abraham except he who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world, and Verily! In the Hereafter he shall be among the righteous. When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! (literally: 'Be a Muslim!') he said: I have surrendered (Literally: 'I have become a Muslim') to the Lord of creation."

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):127-131



    e) Grave Warnings for all who do not follow him:

    So what shall we say to those who say: "Jesus has redeemed us. We have no need to follow any future prophets."? After the above verse of Deuteronomy, God himself threatens severe retribution against all those who do not follow this awaited prophet. In Deuteronomy we read:


    "And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him." (in some translations: "I will be the Revenger")

    Deuteronomy 18:19



    Well, do Muslims read the word of God (The Qur'an) in His name? The answer is: Yes. Muhammad (pbuh) never in his lifetime claimed that the Qur'an was his words, but the words of God it is only the West which claims that it is his words. Further, when a Muslim reads a verse or chapter of the Qur'an, you will find that they have been taught to always start their recitation with the words: "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." The Qur'an contains 114 Chapters. If we were to follow them on down we would find that the first chapter, second chapter, third chapter, and so on all begin with the words "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." (there is one exception). So not only Muhammad (pbuh), but all Muslims in general recite the words of God in His name. Indeed, the Qur'an does even confirm this same warning of Deuteronomy:


    "And whosoever seeks other than Islam as their religion it will not be accepted from him, and he shall be in the hereafter among those who have lost"

    The noble Qur'an, A'al Umran(3):85
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  10. Domino

    Domino Well-Known Member

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    #10
    There is no mention about Muhammed in the Bible or the Old Testment.

    The only family of Muhammed seems to be Ismael, the first son of Avraham, son of Agar, that was the father of the arabs.
     
    Domino, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  11. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #11
    Hello everyone,

    I did not know there was so much hatred and ignorance going on as I have been burried under my papers and books for my graduate studies and having been peer-reviewed by my fellow scholars everyday!

    It seems there is stuff going on in the world outside the academia. My fellow scholars had mentioned that sometimes and we had all laughed but no I did not really expect this much ugliness, to tell you the truth.

    You could at least spell the names right! :)

    After all you are all working on the internet and writing your own thoughts and business deals! One wonders, shall we ever even trust your businesses?! Good to have your links listed as your signitures, so we could be aware! Hah!

    Why is talking about religion is different than talking about anything?

    Hey deadcorn, I think you consufed Muhammad (s.a.s) the Prophet, with Osama. There are 1500 years between them lol!

    Muhammad (s.a.s) was married a very rich woman, 15 years or more older than him, living in one of the richest houses in the city with a very higly respected woman of the city. Tons of men wanted to marry her but she asked Muhammad (s.a.s) to marry her.

    (A hint here for the women of today! Look girls, 1500 years ago, a woman dared to ask a man much younger than her to marry him, you can do it too!)

    As they were living happily, Muhammad was very much concerned with the city life, social behaviour, business deals, treatment of slaves and so on. He used to leave the city once a year or so and go to the mountians, seclude himself and pray to God which he wanted to be in touch with.

    At the time, that specific cave was a place of seclusion and people went there at a specific times of the year to feel alone with God. In one of those days, Allah spoke to him through His angel, Gabriel. Gabriel told Muhammad to "cite."

    I won't go into details, because it is a very touching moment for me, as a human being. Allah is talking to a human being through a great angel and the words are so meaningful that I can understand them and feel them so well because I have some scientific knowledge of human conception and embriology, thank God.

    Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not." The noble Qur'an, Al-Alak(96):1-5

    So, no, you can not compare Osama to Muhammad (s.a.s). It seems TV is influencing you a lot.

    And he was not a dictator at all. He was a very loving man. He was kind and gentle. Where did you get the dictator idea? From Bush?

    " Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the (U.S.) media." Noam Chomsky

    And hey, D16man, why do you need to believe in God, with your "daddy" besides you? I am a woman and never needed my daddy to be with me when I pray to God. Oh, I forget, because I am a woman, I don't need my momy or daddy, besides me! You guys always look up your daddies! Good to remember!

    You should also remember that we don't pray to Muhammad as our God, we follow Muhammad. We pray as he prayed. He never told us to pray to him. Jesus did not either. Muhammad is a Prophet not a divine being. He was a just a messenger. So was Jesus. Jesus prayed to God too, as any human being, Jesus also needs His Lord. So do you.

    And, d16man and Mia, in this other thread that you are talking about. I had given you two sources, one written by a Muslim, and the second by John Gilchrist, if you look at his last name, you can see that he is Christian. Here is the link again:

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/uniqueness.html

    For lazy ones, the articles starts like this:

    For too long Christians and Muslims have debated their differences of belief about Jesus Christ in a context which has allowed scant room for discussion about those points in the Qur'an and the Bible where these two books are in agreement about certain features of his life and personality.

    The time has come, surely, for Christians and Muslims to analyze these points of agreement for we are unlikely ever to come to a consensus of belief about Jesus until we begin by seriously reflecting on those facts where the Qur'an and the Bible are in agreement. While these two books may differ in the interpretation of the facts they both admit, we can confidently study these points as a stepping-stone to the true knowledge of Jesus simply by virtue of the fact that the facts are themselves common cause between Islam and Christianity...


    Remember guys, scholars don't fight like you, and think a bit why. Could that be related to the first verse that came to the Prophet? You know what I mean, Pen, human being, learning... ?

    Salam from me to all the visiters here,
    brujj1
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  12. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #12
    I found mention of the Easter Bunny on page 3,274 of the "Bible":rolleyes:
     
    Mia, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  13. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #13
    There appeared many people, men and women after Muhammad(s.a.s) even during when Muhammad was alive, that they said they were prophets.

    They wanted to make deals with him. They told him that if Muhammad would accepted them as Prophets then people would too. Those people were after money.

    Muhammad (s.a.s) was tested by many Christian Priests at the time, he was offered money and was told not to continue doing what he was doing. Even by his own people, he was asked to do that first. He said, even if you give me the sun in one hand the moon in my other hand, I will continue my duty. And he felt very sad because it was his own people who asked him that. That was in the first years of his Prophethood.

    One more thing to remember. Some Muslims ran away from the tortures of unbelievers to Taif, a city around Mecca. At the time, the head of the city was a Christian Priest. He welcomed them, and asked them. They said that they followed the Prophet Muhammad, and they believed in Islam and that they were Muslims and they were being tortured and so they came to stay in Taif.

    The Priest asked what the Qur'an said about Jesus. And they recited the Chapter of the Qur'an on Mary (may Allah's peace be on her and on her son Jesus):

    19.001 Kaf. Ha. Ya. 'Ain. Sad.
    19.002 (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
    19.003 Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret
    ...............

    The Priest cried and said that he believed that Muhammad was a real Prophet, that words could not be made up, and he gave them a place to stay.

    I think he did not convert. I am not sure. But I never studied anything that showed me that anybody ever blamed him for crying or for not converting.

    What I mean is, people lived with each other having their own beliefs.

    Have you ever heard of the famous al-Andalus in Spain? Jews, Christians and the Muslims lived there very happily together in the Golden Ages of Islam, and the best scholars in the middle ages came from there. Today's scientific knowledge and romance (which I like so much) have their bases in Al-Andalus.

    Salam (peace) from me to everyone,
    brujj1
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  14. KalvinB

    KalvinB Peon

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    #14
    You're going to have to debate with Mormons whether those verses say that Muhammed was in the Bible or whether Joseph Smith is in the Bible.

    There might be some other religions out there, too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

    Nevermind researching the facts, here comes more cut and paste I'm sure.
     
    KalvinB, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  15. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #15
    read More, Kelvin.
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  16. KalvinB

    KalvinB Peon

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    #16
    I'll read more when you take up a Mormon on which of your prophets the Bible is really talking about.

    I'll also read more when you can post:

    "The founder of Islam, Muhammad, was wrong when he said it takes two women to equal one man."

    and

    "The founder of Islam, Muhammad, was wrong when he said women have half a brain."

    If you can admit that Mr M was wrong about those two things I'll take your religion a little more seriously.
     
    KalvinB, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  17. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #17
    Hah! Muhammad did not say any such things. There is no such hadith.

    There is such a mention in the Qur'an about witnessing. And that's interpreted as "men would not take women as witnesses, men would not believe women as witnesses, that's why having two women instead of one woman as a witness looks more crediable to men, when they are the opposite side in a disagreement."

    As you see, that has to two with your male pride and inferiority complex, nothing to do with my Prophet or women.

    Here is something for you to think about.
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  18. KalvinB

    KalvinB Peon

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    #18
    If you can say

    "The founder of Islam, Muhammad, was wrong when he said women are of inferior intelligence to men"

    I'll start to take your religion a little more seriously. A lot of people aren't aware of the "little" things that the founder of their religion said.

    For bonus points say

    "If the founder of Islam, Muhammad, said that Jews were decended from pigs and/or apes, he'd be wrong."
     
    KalvinB, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  19. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #19
    Nope, that is not an accepted hadith. Bukhari collected thousands of hadiths and selected many of them, and threw away many of them.

    Some of the hadith are still questionable because of their broken chains and the unknown sources. Bukhari did his best as he tried to do his best in his religion. But you have to admit that his personal understanding, his background and his context of his lifetime must have an influence on his choosing the hadith.

    That hadith is NOT accepted by scholars as a Prophetic saying. But it exists in the cultures still. There are several hadith like that.

    Moreover, there are several hadith or sunna that actually Prophet did not himself say or do, but was done by the companions of the Prophet and people in the community that people took as authority. They are also taken as sunna. See Wael Hallaq's books on these.

    Muhammad (s.a.s) never said that women are inferior, not in their intelligence not in their physical make up. He, infact, valued women very highly. He spoke good about many women. Sometimes he even showed women examples to men (like in war, about a woman who defended him fighting next to him, he said "never did I turn to my right and to my left and she wasnt't there defending me!").

    Muhammad (s.a.s.) never insulted women! He asked the opinions of his wives several times during social gatherings, when he wanted to decide something, when he did not know what to do. His wives were always involved in political issues.

    I bet you did not know any of these.

    You just learn one little thought somewhere and then take it to your heart without questioning it.

    Why is it easier for you to believe that he is bad rather than he is good?

    Here is something for you to think about.
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP
  20. brujj1

    brujj1 Peon

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    #20
    By the way, I dislike the way you ask me your questions.

    I suggest you phrase your thoughts a bit more respectfully, so I would think that I am conversing with a human being who wants to have some more information on a topic they find offensive.

    Here are some suggestions:

    1. Could you give me more information on this topic?
    2. I would like to know more on this topic, if you have time, please.
    3. I am really interested in this following topic, could you please let me know what you think.
    4. There is this hadith that I question so much, I would like to know your opinions on this.
     
    brujj1, Dec 28, 2006 IP