McCain is Winning, McCain Leads 56% To 38% ,Obama Concedes Georgia

It appears that she knows how to compromise while governing. While you might not like here beliefs, her politics appear to be sound on this issue.

"This year, she rebuffed religious conservatives who wanted her to add two abortion restriction measures to a special legislative session on oil and gas policy, even though she supported the bills. Former aide Larry Persily said she didn't want to risk offending Democrats, whose votes she needed on energy legislation."

Source: Palin 'governed from the center,' went after big oil

That's the way politics works. You can want all day, but in reality, you have to make compromises in order to govern effectively.

 

PHP, I am presenting Palin for what she is. The facts above stand for themselves.

Please, refer back to my post because the answers to your questions are there.

For instance, when she came out to mirror McCain's opposition to the senate bill - authored by Obama - that would waive the requirement to file an unequal compensation grievance within 6 months, she stood with McCain mouthing the team supports equal pay, while acting to ensure the means to secure it are stripped.

She would force a woman to carry the child of a man who raped her, or committed incest on her. I have to say it - for godsakes, what the living hell? Under Palin's governorship, Alaska has the highest per-capita incidence of rape and sexual assault in the entire nation.

As to her drilling in Alaska, she hasn't waivered, which wasn't my point. Be for drilling whenever, wherever you want, offer gobs of tax cash to blast the hell out of artic wolves from the air (or, as in her case, hell, do it yourself), but don't in the same breath tell me you are a conservationist.

In truth, the more that has gone on, the more I'd agree with you on your assessment of Palin as a brilliant political ploy. She can't be touched by Obama or Biden, without invoking charges of condescension. She stands in opposition to everything Hillary Clinton has ever fought for, so her silence on Palin dumbfounds me - until I think of Clinton, the political animal, who is looking to 2012 and who looks on the 20% shift you correctly note with caution, even alarm.

As to that 20% shift, this seems about right, to me. Read for content, not for source, please, all:

(edit: sorry, I said, "read for content, not for source," - and then neglected the source. I've lost it now, but I recall it came from Huffington Post. "Content, not source" means take it at face value, and consider, as I would consider Heritage Foundation material, etc.).

 

Jazz, since I early on supported Obama for precisely the reason you argue here, we can dance all we want, but let's speak plainly:

Is it "feminism" to declare that a rape victim or incest victim should be forced to carry the criminal's seed to term, or face legal consequences?

Is it "feminism" to oppose changing a law that requires a woman getting screwed on her pay to (1) find out about it; and (2) file a grievance about it, within 6 months of getting screwed on her unequal pay for equal work? Have you generally been in a situation when you ever knew about the comparative compensation of your fellow employees, much less within a window of 6 months, at any time? Is it corporate practice to put the comparative pay up in the company lunchroom?

Do we really live in this kind of land of the bizarro?

Yes, I don't like her politics, and I don't like an America where the likes of Karl Rove sneer while we dumbly go to our destruction, on yesteryear's promise as an intelligent, compassionate, informed people.

 

Northpoint... Palin, as a strong individual that took down entrenched interests to become the first female governor of Alaska is a better example of a woman who has claimed her rights than a flock of me-too Gloria Steinham wannabes. Thanks for the nice long answers, but the weight of the logic is more important than the weight of the ink.

Many women are FOR womens rights AND oppose abortion. Dont try to marginalize their viewpoint by pretending they arent there. That they disagree with you doesnt make them cease to exist.

 

Why would yo usay that this opposes equal pay for women? You can support the Equal Pay Act of 1963 and not support a bill that would bring in tons of cases overnight.

I know a guy in Oregon that his mother was raped. She decided to have the child. This guy is now the product of what once was a bad situation. However, his mother loved him, cared for him, and he is now a preacher and law abiding citizen. Should we go around punishing or killing people for the crimes that their biological fathers commit?

Lets be honest. The people in Alaska, most of which who don't want to see their state turn into something that looks like Western Oklahoma, do support drilling. The technology is available, we can do this and not have to disturb a lot of wildlife or turn the place into something that it currently is not. You can hunt, support drilling, and still be a conservationist, just not a radical one.

I simply don't agree with your source. It has the condentation that the women voters just aren't informed on some of her most popular stances. Palin has been very clear on where stands on some of the issues you have discussed. She wants drilling, she is pro-life, and has some basic christian values. She never hid this and those that know anything about her are likely to know these things. Perhaps it just comes as a surprise that not all women are pro-choice?

 

Well, Rob, if this is the the way the conversation now turns, nice attempt. I really don't give a fuck about how long my posts are, or whether you do or don't like them. If you believe I've failed to make my case, stand tall and refute my points. Using the same kind of gutless tactic taken by others, simply crying "well, you're WRONGGGG" when they've got nothing, serves zero.

Let's quit the game playing, shall we? I asked it above, and I'll ask it again. Let me know if these are two many words, and I'll try to pare them down to a yet more manageable size:

Is it "feminism" to declare that a rape victim or incest victim should be forced to carry the criminal's seed to term, or face legal consequences?

Is it "feminism" to oppose changing a law that requires a woman getting screwed on her pay to (1) find out about it; and (2) file a grievance about it, within 6 months of getting screwed on her unequal pay for equal work? Have you generally been in a situation when you ever knew about the comparative compensation of your fellow employees, much less within a window of 6 months, at any time? Is it corporate practice to put the comparative pay up in the company lunchroom?

I'll re-ask another. Is it too much to ask that a candidate for the vice-presidency at least takes her foreign policy correspondence courses from something other than Fox News?

And, if this isn't too many words to consider, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE PARTY OF THINKING CONSERVATIVES, IN THE LINE OF BARRY GOLDWATER?

 

I do not agree with her on either of these two issues. I also do not think that she could get either of these into law no matter how hard she tried so the question is moot to me.

Conversely, Obama will have a much easier time sliding his liberal agenda through the Democratic House and Senate.

I thought that it was a pretty good article that refutes a lot of the false charges that are out there. Considering the source, I was actually surprised.

 

PHP - unequal pay is unequal pay, is it not? You either support it, or you don't correct? That enforcing the concept may invoke people actually securing equal pay - this is the point, right?

Fine. Glad it worked out, as it may in 1000's of like instances. Key question: should we force the raped woman to carry that child? Are you seriously going to argue that this, position, Sarah Palin's postion, is an argument for feminism?

No disrespect, PHP, but I won't revisit this, because I've already dealt with this extensively - any exploration of her environmental impact "research" shows she doesn't give a fuck (say, for instance, her reliance on a 60-year old text on aerial hunting as "evidence" for the low impact on arctic wolf populations). If you choose to believe here pro-oil positions, and her actions respecting wildlife, are evidence that she both supports drilling and conservation, I'd have to respectfully disagree and leave it there.

It wouldn't be the first time, PHP.

I will tell you a brief story. Back in the '80's, while still an undergraduate at Berkeley, prior to entering the grad program there, I began a joint-departmental quantitative study on the notion of whether votes "ideas" over "material interests" in their electoral choices. Broadly (overbroadly, but at the risk of offending Rob with my overlong posts, will keep it here), "ideas" were sets of "thermometer" notions, on "values," etc. "Material interests" were comparisons of policy initiatives to positive or adverse impact on individuals; i.e, a progressive tax structure on relatively wealthy individuals.

I went in a strong materialist, which was my theoretical predisposition. Much to my surprise, one of the most striking results was the strong, working class support for Ronald Reagan's presidency. I won't go into my findings, in part because I can't remember the specific data (1984-1986, when I was doing the study), and in part because I want to keep it brief. But what the study revealed was that despite Reagan's policies that did adversely affect working class voters, they went in for his "pitch," along the lines of "morning in America." In other words, when viewed from the position of actual effects of a candidate's policies, they got snowed.

Just did a 30-second search. This squares with my memory of what I discovered then:

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorblog/081

They're buying it all over again. Please consider what the article excerpt I post above says: It was a strong, independent firebrand like Phyllis Schlafly who made a national mission to prevent the inclusion of the following words in an Amendment:

RADICAL. As radical as, say, the 15th Amendment, approved a century earlier:

 

Jazz, respectfully, this illustrates precisely my point. I hear all the time about how the Obama camp doesn't have any values, stand for nothing, etc. Yet you are saying that despite the values Palin holds close to her chest with every fibre of her being, values you don't embrace, your reasoning is that she can't get what she wants anyway, so, in essence, "what the hell."

These things do matter to me, and they matter a helluva lot. I empathize with the struggle women went through to turn from being literal non-human beings, according to the constitution, to make it so a cipher like Palin can rise to the national stage. I do not toss what she portends out the door, simply because "she won't achieve it." These are my values.

 

The Clintons have been pretty quiet since the convention, haven't they?

 

Hey,
I would like to know what you americans think of your economy?
- The dollar and your debt...
Do you beleive you will ever get back on your feets?

 

Yep, and I'm not surprised. As a result of the primary battle, I lost a tremendous amount of respect for Hillary Clinton. In truth, I have wondered whether it's all a plan for 2012. The conspiracy theorist sitting on my shoulder surmises: so weaken Obama by her primary campaign that he will lose the election, should he win the nomination. McCain wins. By 2012, America really has had enough, and will vote any Democrat into office, come hell or highwater. Hillary Clinton, beleaguered near-miss in 2008, steps in.

A bonafide conspiracy theory, care of yours truly.

 

Yeah, OK. I "empathize with the struggle women went through to turn from being literal non-human beings" as well. Those are her views that I don't agree with, she also has views that I agree with. I doubt that either of us will ever find a candidate that we can agree with 100%.

Obama supports late term abortion. He supports federally funded abortions. He doesn't want his daughter "punished" with a child even if she carries it full term. He supports handouts and raising taxes disproportionately on the rich. I don't like his Global Poverty Act. I don't like the fact that his only plan to pay for any of his handout social programs is the raise taxes on the rich. Hell, the bottom third of taxpayers don't pay a damn cent in federal income tax as it is! That is just a start.

When I weigh Palin's bad that won't ever become law against Obama's plans that are in complete agreement with the democratic congress and WILL become law, my choice is clear.

 

I can respect this position entirely, Jazz, though I would disagree with some of your contentions regarding Obama's comments on abortion (another time), or on his plans on how he intends to pay for his program (though I largely agree with your assessment - again, another time). Your position in this post, and reasons for your point of view, are entirely honorable, in my opinion, and though I weight the issues differently, and disagree on them for the most part, I clap hands in respect to your right to make them and vote accordingly.

Paul

 

opposing abortion is trying to push your belief on other people. she was happy that her daughter could choose to keep the baby yet she does not want the same choice for the women of America
why do you think the govt should have the right to the body of the women but not to the right to tax man's money
I do NOT respect that

 

That was sooo PC.

I'm trying to be good too.

Thanks!

 

Hahahahahah, well, yeah, do I get a cookie now, too?

The truth of it is, Jazz, a sincere statement, I can respect most points of view, if they are informed, and honorable in the positing.

Part of what I think has been missing from the national debate, for quite some time, is precisely that. Far too much "true American" affirmations (and by extension, far too many "not true American" affirmations), far too little listening to views differing from one's own. It isn't limited to any one ideology, but I do think the last 8 years have moved us to a place more mean spirited, more cynical, more prone to snap judgments on others, than any other time in American history, and I'm sick of it. I think we're a better people than that.

And I'm preaching, so I'll close out, now. Bottom line, anyone has my respect who makes his or her points with cogency and honorable means, no matter how wide the chasm between my views coming in and the other's point of view. It's how I learn, for one.

 

The fact that I can support a point without cutting and pasting an encyclopedia and then commenting for an hour doesnt make *me* simple, just means the answer is. No amount of cussing or namecalling changes the fact that many women as well as men oppose abortion on moral grounds.

Not agreeing with me or them is your choice... but calling me names because you dont like my opinion doesnt make yours any stronger.

The Democrats are having a huge problem with Palin precisely because she believes in rights, including hers not to fall into lockstep with their idea of what a strong woman *should* believe. It is driving them (and now you) off message because they cannot deal with it. Step away from the keyboard if you cant remain composed.

 

Rob, if my referring to others' thoughts in addition to the thoughts I write really, really rocks your world, please save yourself the heartburn, because I write a lot, read a lot, and post my thoughts, anyone's thoughts, anything I think may prove interesting and worthwhile.

And lying doesn't help you. I've never once called you names, to my knowledge, though I do use colorful language from time to time. The former is infractionable, and the latter, not. I recall you red-repped Hmansfield over his opinion and remarks on another figure as well. You'd do very well to distinguish an attack on you from an opinion on another. In my case, the McCain ticket, right wing extremism, and so forth.

My post to Jazz should have been enough evidence to you that I can respect any honorable dialogue. Your ignorance in dismissing my point of view because it is written in lengthy posts, etc., isn't credible - but that's your problem, no one else's.

 

LOL. You need to try decaf.