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Liquidity and responsiveness- a better website?

Discussion in 'Programming' started by stillfree, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. #1
    Hey guys
    Sorry first of all if this the wrong section but I am a total noob at this.


    So I am getting the website made for dating and my developers say that since they are building it they should liquid and get responsiveness thing for the website for now. They are charging alot for this and I think they are trying to mid guide me and take money out of my pocket.

    http://www.craftexpertly.com/recentprojects/minglinghearts/#

    This is the website , they did everything from the start.

    So they want $350 for this which I don't have and they are pressurizing me into it by saying that later it would cost more money etc. first tell me if they are right about it, can't I get this done later? And if yes will it cost more and take more time later and won't be that big of a deal

    Second aren't they trying to screw me over?

    It's n American company and I think I hold just cancel the order and leave them like this. Thy haven't completed the website yet and are asking to release escrow, have made my life miserable.

    Thanks
    stillfree, Sep 17, 2013 IP
  2. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #2
    $350 and you are quibbling? You don't want to work with anyone who has made your life miserable but first be sure that they are the problem and not you.

    @deathshadow will be along, no doubt, and will talk to you about the quality of their work.

    In the meantime, the site looks great on my browser and almost right on my phone

    =========================

    the heading isn't quite right
    upload_2013-9-18_13-24-11.png

    the form doesn't quite work
    upload_2013-9-18_13-24-44.png

    this looks great
    upload_2013-9-18_13-25-17.png
    sarahk, Sep 17, 2013 IP
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  3. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #3
    Just a couple of extra pointers

    • If you visit their home page the live chat doesn't work
    • they have latin in the contact section
    • and they appear to work from home, unless ofcourse they've just picked an American address at random (which happens alot, back when sites used to be very US-centric I'd make up an address and give 90210 as my zipcode). You've logged into this forum from 4 very different countries, so you know all about appearing to be from somewhere you're not.

    They are right about needing a responsive them, they are offering a good price but you maybe need to check them out a bit more.
    sarahk, Sep 17, 2013 IP
  4. stillfree

    stillfree Greenhorn

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    #4
    Hey
    First of all thank you for the long reply. You did your research and it makes me feel served. I understand everything clearly. About the quibbling thing, well I have every right to :)
    See I don't mind the price , I am an investor and spend what is required. If some one days this much and this much time, I expect myself to stay up to the deal and same for them. I know that you are implying it for the cost, but this is my first website so I am re confirming everything. I don't want to lose even before I begin the site.

    So final decision is I will go with it. Lets get it done! :)

    I think they work from home too. I think all freelancer suck! Working with 10 right now and they all are crazy for money even before the work is done! Ha.

    Do you guys think it is a good project?

    This is my plan :
    Getting SEO (I have no idea if it will work) paying $480 per month.
    Getting $450 Facebook advert
    Getting $80 YouTube whiteboard video with SEO
    Getting $420 press release from a professional
    Getting $200 worth of social media marketing
    $600 worth of articles, profile writing for paid members etc.
    Website is aiming for young students in universities.

    And that's pretty much it.

    What do you think Sarah?

    Once agin thanks for the help

    And I have logged in from a couple of places because I travel lot and yes I did use things to hide it. I just accessed the site from my server so it looks like hiding but it ain't.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2013
    stillfree, Sep 17, 2013 IP
  5. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #5
    I'll let the others give feedback on the business plan. Personally I wouldn't touch the dating niche, I'd have thought it was done to death and unless you had a quirky niche like "dating for aquarium owners" you wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys. Prove me wrong, by all means, but I'm not the gal to give advice on that side of things.
    sarahk, Sep 18, 2013 IP
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  6. deathshadow

    deathshadow Prominent Member

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    #6
    I'm reading this thread laughing "What long reply?!?" -- man, are you gonna LOVE me...

    $350 isn't unreasonable, though it hinges on the quality of the work and the overall price breakdown -- It should NOT be any sort of extra charge on top of the normal theme development (which in my own billing was usually only $150 -- was, retired now). Fluid responsive layout should be a natural part of theme development.

    That said, that page is a disaster of inept coding... mind you, I say that about 90% of the shlock people vomit up and call a website. There's bandwidth wasting garbage like that stupid malfing image rotator -- something that has NO business on a website in the first place and generally speaking just gets in the way of having a responsive layout that actually WORKS. In terms of responsive design it's buggy broken garbage here that I sure as shine-ola wouldn't want to try and use on a mobile device. (and that's without talking about all that scripted and bandwidth+memory hogging image crap sucking the battery dry)

    Even if it has fluid and responsive layout, it has two of the three major /FAIL/ at accessibility -- absurdly undersized fixed metric (px) fonts on most of the content, and several places with illegible color contrasts far, FAR below accessibility minimums; the result reeks of "WCAG, what's that?". It is in fact FILLED with elements that if you are trying to design an accessible fast loading site, have NO business on said site. ESPECIALLY the massive bandwidth wasting gee ain't it neat animated CRAP! There's a reason you don't see that **** on 'real' websites like Google, Amazon, E-Bay, Slashdot, etc, etc... Even when facebook does it they do so with an eye-dropper. They're trying to woo you with flash, when they have no substance.

    Code-wise, it's got the typical HTML 5 crap. (NOT a fan). Generally speaking HTML 5 seems to be the bread and butter of developers who never extraced their cranium from 1998's rectum, and until a couple years ago were sleazing out HTML 3.2 and slapping 4 tranny on it. Now they wrap 5's lip-service around it while vomiting up the same outdated, outmoded, and just plain broken crap.

    It starts out with the stupid malfing "let's wrap the HTML tag in multiple CC's to cover up developer ineptitude" by Paul Irish, mated to a fat, bloated idiotic framework called "foundation" -- which is also just developer ineptitude in action and defeats the entire point of even using HTML+CSS in the first place. It has static CSS in the markup so kiss caching models goodbye. It then further pisses the bed with jQuery for nothing, endless crap scripts for nothing, and little if anything remotely resembling semantic markup. the use of numbered headings is complete gibberish -- and there is no logical document structure. There's DIV for nothing, ID's and classes for nothing, comment (yes comment) placements that could trip rendering bugs, presentational use of classes, and in general a laundry list of how not to code a website.

    This is quite easily illustrated by the 32k of markup and total of 2.2 MEGABYTES in 59 files to deliver maybe six actual content images and a mere 2.2k of plaintext -- easily four to six times the amount of HTML that should have been used, twice the upper limit of separate files I'd EVER allow on a single page, and ten to fifteen times the total filesize. Pathetically bad is that a full quarter of that is javascripted "gee ain't it neat" garbage -- much less the idiotic 150k in 9 CSS files when even the largest website with no media targets, when even the most massive types of websites (like a forums) has no legitimate excuse to use more than two files per media type (so in this case two files since so far it's all screen layout only) coming to more than 48k. A developer "needs" more than that, they aren't qualified to be developing websites in the first place.

    Of course relying on sleazy bloated garbage shortcuts like Foundation proudly proclaims that before real coding has even started. This is a poster child for everything WRONG with that approach to development.

    In light of that, whoever you're dealing with has gotten you in the saddle, and is taking you for a ride. Admittedly, I say that about 99% of the people crapping out websites any old way these days -- from the nitwits who start out by vomiting up mockups in photoshop without enough knowledge of HTML, CSS or accessibility to be designing jack ***, to the re-re's who sleaze out pages with hundreds of K if not megabytes worth of frameworks, to the developers who can't resist all the "Gee ain't it neat" scripttard garbage that has no place on a website in the first place.

    Stuff like that is just asking for the site to NEVER reach it's full potential.

    Sorry if that seems a bit harsh (and technical), but if you're just starting out it's better to take the blinders off you now so the scam artists will have difficulty leading you down the garden path to failure.
    deathshadow, Sep 18, 2013 IP
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  7. stillfree

    stillfree Greenhorn

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    #7
    Hey

    Well the post made me high. That's so much information! And yes I think I have fallen in love with you.

    First, I understand that it's a bad niche, big boys will kill me but I have no idea where to start from. I have spent so much and still think that it's all a fail. But I will still go ahead and give it a try.

    When they sent me the proposal they said they will do everything. But now they say that the proposal explains what we can do and not what we will do for you. Well that's just like saying I am a prostitute and take $100, when the time comes you say I will charge $100 extra to do this. Sorry if this is a bad example, I am not in a state to think. I think there is no way but to get the liquid thing done from them.

    I sent you reply to the developers me they say that the website has not been validated as of yet so the arguments are not valid :/

    They are writing a reply which I will post shortly.


    For now I have the following questions:
    1- is the website a total fail, can't I even earn $100 per month from it.
    2- is the business plan any good? Of course you can't tell how able are the people doing these jobs but still lets assume they are ok.
    3- what steps should I take now to get the website up?
    4- should I turn down the project, remember many people have already been paid.
    5- if I am developing another site , what ideas can you give me. I need a professional mentor like death shadow. Sir what do I need to get that privilege.
    6- is it better to just buy websites that are making revenue?
    7- I am looking for an income of $500 per month to live by my university. Or else I will be dropping out soon
    8- can a professional guide me for scratch on how to get a good website made? Like help me create job description of the Jobs I post on freelancer websites.

    I know I am going crazy but it's m first website but I have high ambitions to become better at this. I just need some guidance
    stillfree, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  8. EmmanuelFlossie

    EmmanuelFlossie Active Member

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    #8
    Jees I wanted to start reading @deathshadow's post, gave up after realizing it's longer than a post-it note.

    So what I might say, may reflect his argument.

    Your engaging into an environment that is highly competitive, and looking at your budget I don't how you could make a mark.
    What is so different about your site vs the other well established sites?
    Are you bringing something new to the market?

    If not, stop wasting your money and invest into something that is ground breaking.

    The success of a business is the risk you take with innovative ideas.

    If you still want a dating website, do some thinking and come up with a plan that sets you apart from the others.
    EmmanuelFlossie, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  9. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #9
    I thought you said you were an "investor". Investors are all about the numbers and they know when to cut their losses.

    Before you start throwing money at an idea write a business plan, do a competitor analysis and do your research into the niche generally. You need to wise up. You'll probably get that money for University more easily working weekends at McDonalds.
    sarahk, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  10. stillfree

    stillfree Greenhorn

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    #10
    Haha I am an investor in the sense I just spend and don't actually know how to build the website. I think you have to start somewhere and unfortunately this is what I could think off. Secondly, no McDonald's right now. I can't work off campus. :) maybe on campus but lets see. I have other business to worry about too.

    I won't say I am bringing something new to the market, maybe just the video chat but that's pretty much it. For now I am just targeting my own university so I am actually not thinking to Make alot but I want to be big in the long term. And I think digital point is the forum which would give me the best advice.

    Since most is already spent I am just going to finish it and let it go on the current business plan if I see it going good I ill give it Time. ( mayb that's a bad idea but lets see)

    So the other business idea I have is
    A fitness site. I hang around with the national champions and one if the best trainers around. I can just start one and post their blogs and try to market them.

    I know this a stupid question, but I will still ask. What kind of sites make money? Like I know it needs to be something new but looking at the current situation of the market what industry is easy to get in and expect some income? Budget $5000 for start , income $100+ month. I am pretty sure that's a low ROI. Just ideas , or should I just buy websites that make money ( which I don't want to do). Hints would be good too.
    stillfree, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  11. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #11
    If you are just targetting your university you'd be better off having it written in Bengali wouldn't you?
    And have the stock art reflect your culture, not some idealised idea of what Americans look like?

    Can't help you with the make money stuff, for $100/month I still reckon you'd be better working - even hiring out development skills, project management skills or whatever you have going for you.
    sarahk, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  12. stillfree

    stillfree Greenhorn

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    #12
    Haha I am in an American univeristy in Texas. Actually the biggest in the state. Why do you think I am Bengali ? I am on full scholar ship , just need some thing to have a constant income. My other business is up one month and down the next. I know websites are like that too! I am not trying to show the Bengali culture.

    Cool, I think this is enough help for now. Will see what works out because at the end every thing does , atleast for me. I am in this and I am not moving out until successful
    stillfree, Sep 18, 2013 IP
  13. ThePHPMaster

    ThePHPMaster Well-Known Member

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    #13
    Without Failure, there is no success. If you feel in your guts that this can succeed, go ahead with it. Just ready yourself to drop it if you fail to achieve your goals after a certain period of time.

    I think that responsiveness development in this day in age is a necessity since the number of mobile users is growing around the world. You made the error of not requesting it originally, so next time make sure you do so on all your projects.
    ThePHPMaster, Sep 18, 2013 IP
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  14. stillfree

    stillfree Greenhorn

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    #14
    Yes Sir I will. Thanks for the motivation.
    stillfree, Sep 19, 2013 IP
  15. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #15
    Oh, I got my sides of India muddled.

    What were you up to in Holland?
    upload_2013-9-20_11-36-2.png
    sarahk, Sep 19, 2013 IP
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  16. deathshadow

    deathshadow Prominent Member

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    #16
    Funny since I dind't even mention the invalid code, and even if it did validate that would do NOTHING to address ANYTHING I mentioned. It's possible to have bad/rubbish/halwit/non-semantic/outdated code and still have it 'validate' -- so they're talking out their asses and probably don't know enough about HTML, CSS or Accessibility to be building you a website in the first place.

    Though the presence of Foundation and jQuery proudly proclaims that in the first place.

    Some of your questions all get the same answer:

    I don't believe in using a website as a source of income unless you have it backing a product, or can devote 60+ hours a week to maintaining/updating it or can pay someone to do so. It SOUNDS like you are trying to blindly 'invest' in sites, and building a 'productless' site for income, particularly anything that would simply be advertising revenue based is nothing more than a giant idiotic myth/scam unless you have the knowledge to actually build it and maintain it yourself. You'd be better off buying Carlton Sheets "Make money in realty fast" off the 2AM TV adverts or becoming an Amway Associate.

    Making it a real income to live off of using off the shelf or having something built for you? Unless you get REALLY lucky or put in as many hours a week than you would flipping burgers for the same amount of money, It's not going to happen.

    Websites are more like owning a car, they are an expense, NOT an investment. Anyone tells you that you can just buy a successful site and have it make money for you is packing you so full of sand you could change your name to Sahara. The creation and selling of allegedly successful sites is one of the BIGGEST scams on the Internet! I've never fathomed that part of the industry given that it has all the legitimacy of every other get-rich-quick scheme of the past two centuries.

    Much less the "advertising can pay for everything" bull alongside "Sophisticated Internet Investor -- will give money for vague promises" was one of the major contributing factors to the first dotcom bubble and it's subsequent burst. (something we've been building towards a repeat of for some time thanks to site-sell, SEO and advertising scam artists who've taken over the industry!)

    I hate to tell you this, but it sounds like you've been led down the garden path... To the point I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale of you're interested.

    That's why I'm here -- ask away -- if it's stuff you don't want on the forum proper, send it via the private message system here.

    To an extent, though again, it sounds to me like you have unrealistic expectations and have been given a completely unrealistic view of what you can get out of owning a website. If you are thinking of it in the short term as an investment, you've already failed. For at least two years it shouldn't be thought of as an investment, but as an expense.

    ... and now the scam artists get to flood out of the woodwork to say "IS NOT" without backing up that claim with any sort of facts.
    deathshadow, Sep 20, 2013 IP
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  17. Textex

    Textex Greenhorn

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    #17
    The scam artists are already busy selling Amway.
    Textex, Jan 2, 2014 IP
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  18. deathshadow

    deathshadow Prominent Member

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    #18
    Normally I bitch when people bounce four or five month old posts for nothing... but I tell ya, that gave me a good chuckle!

    Though I suspect they just don't dare venture out of the SEO area of these forums, since if they showed up with their fairy-tale bullshit in the design area, people who actually know something about building websites might actually call them on it!
    deathshadow, Jan 2, 2014 IP