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Learning Web Design

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by mathewaki, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. #1
    I am looking to learn web design but am a little lost on where to start.

    My ultimate goal is to build websites for businesses.

    Should I learn to code or just learn how to use word press a lot better.

    If I should learn how to code what language do I learn.

    Do I learn HTML or HTML5 and so on.

    basically I am a stay at home dad looking to make more money for my family whilst actua;;y doing something whilst the kids are at school.


    Thanks
     
    mathewaki, Apr 21, 2014 IP
  2. juerald

    juerald Active Member

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    #2
    Ofcourse in start you should read HTML surf in internet try to read some e-books for HTML dummies. Also when you think you know basics of HTML go to CSS.

    Also youtube is a very good teacher are a lot of channels when you can learn step-by-step HTML.
     
    juerald, Apr 21, 2014 IP
  3. deathshadow

    deathshadow Illustrious Member

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    #3
    Until you have a command of HTML and CSS, with a focus on things like content first development, semantic markup, and separation of presentation from content -- you really have no business learning jack **** about turdpress. Though, once you do you'll realize what a massive train wreck of garbage turdpress is in the first place, and why generally speaking it has little if any business being used for "real businesses". It's a cute toy for personal blogs, trying to use it as anything more than that is just asking for it to turn around and bite you -- either in the endless bounces of people who can't be bothered to put up with the accessibility failures, the increased cost of hosting it's massive bloat provides, or the security holes the size of the Big Stick.

    Using turdpress for a business is like shaving with a Bic lighter.
     
    deathshadow, Apr 21, 2014 IP
  4. Eddie Phillips

    Eddie Phillips Member

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    #4
    Hey Mathew!

    I've been taking an excellent course in HTML called, "Absolute HTML with Mom." Ben Fhala, the instructor, walks his Mom through HTML basics in a step by step, low tech manner. At the moment his intro HTML course is free, along with several other courses. You'll find his courses by doing a Google search for 02geek (zero 2geek). Ben loves to interact with his students via email, unlike a lot of folks online. Check him out -- he has over 925 five star reviews.

    Cheers
     
    Eddie Phillips, Apr 21, 2014 IP
  5. kenzo22

    kenzo22 Member

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    #5
    Did WordPress kill someone from your family you hate it so much ? :D

    Back to the topic: Read some tutorials about HTML and CSS. If you want to mess with WordPress you should have a basic knowledge of PHP. You should also read WordPress codex to see how it all works from inside. What's the most important, practise! Make simple websites for your friends, auction templates etc.
     
    kenzo22, Apr 22, 2014 IP
  6. deathshadow

    deathshadow Illustrious Member

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    #6
    Is there some magical reason most developers are too stupid to know what's wrong with:
    <li id="menu-item-6" class="menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom current-menu-item current_page_item menu-item-home menu-item-6">
    Code (markup):
    Is there a reason developers are too stupid to realize putting your sql login info (un/pw/host) into DEFINE?!?

    EVERYTHING about turdpress makes one question just HOW IN THE HELL IS ANYONE DUMB ENOUGH TO VOLUNTARILY USE IT!?!?!

    Seriously, if you don't know what's wrong with that little code snippet above, you have NO MALFING BUSINESS MAKING WEBSITES!

    Admittedly, I say the same thing about jQuery, YUI, blueprint, grids, bootstrap, HTML 5, dreamweaver, dicking around drawing goofy pictures in Photoshop and calling it design, grabbing crappy off the shelf templates from whorehouses like ThemeForest and TemplateMonster... I swear there's so much drooling idiot practices now considered 'the norm' and 'acceptable', we're gonna need a LOT of wet-naps to clean up.

    It's almost like most people crapping out websites don't know and don't care about delivering actual content to users in a clean and simple manner, and instead want to piss all over the place with "gee ain't it neat" bull and sleazy shortcuts to sweep the lack of actual content of value under the rug.
    .
     
    deathshadow, Apr 22, 2014 IP
  7. kolier

    kolier Member

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    #7
    @deathshadow
    Seems what you hate is the methodology of implementing Modular Mind.

    IMHO, OOP and Modular are better than functional implementation when it comes to reusable and multiple instances. But it would be a little complex and redundant and resources cost.
    But if not cost more resources, the new products can't be sold. Just like the video 360p, 480p, 720p, 1080p, 4k.
     
    kolier, Apr 23, 2014 IP
  8. deathshadow

    deathshadow Illustrious Member

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    #8
    @kolier, not sure what you are even trying to say there -- I just hate code bloat, code redundancies, and needlessly complex convoluted and broken methodologies that break the entire reason we're supposed to be using CSS in the first place. PARTICULARLY since it means most people start out with 200 to 500k of HTML, CSS and Scripting before they even start plugging in content, and even with those libraries ALLEGEDLY making it 'easier' and 'smaller' people end up writing more code and more complex code than they'd have without them. (and how having more code and more complex code is 'easier' is beyond my comprehension)

    Again, see that little code snippet above that has NO legitimate reason to be more than:
    <li id="menuItem6">

    ...and in 90% of applications probably doesn't need the ID either...

    Apart from the absolute ignorance of what inheritance is and how to use it on the part of the idiotic halfwits who made menu system for turdpress in the first place.

    It's like bootcrap, take this slice of idiocy pulled from their "starter template":
       <div class="navbar navbar-inverse navbar-fixed-top">
          <div class="navbar-inner">
            <div class="container">
              <button type="button" class="btn btn-navbar" data-toggle="collapse" data-target=".nav-collapse">
                <span class="icon-bar"></span>
                <span class="icon-bar"></span>
                <span class="icon-bar"></span>
              </button>
              <a class="brand" href="#">Project name</a>
              <div class="nav-collapse collapse">
                <ul class="nav">
                  <li class="active"><a href="#">Home</a></li>
                  <li><a href="#about">About</a></li>
                  <li><a href="#contact">Contact</a></li>
                </ul>
              </div><!--/.nav-collapse -->
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
    Code (markup):
    that's one hell of a non-semantic train wreck of code -- what with the abuse of the BUTTON tag for scripttardery outside a form, elements that only work scripting on inlined in the markup, endless pointless classes and DIV for nothing, lack of a heading on a obvious heading item, using a class that could be consfused with a psuedostate... for what should likely just be:
    <div id="top"><div class="widthWrapper">
    	<h1>
    		<a href="/">Project Name</a>
    	</h1>
    	<ul>
    		<li class="current"><a href="/">Home</a></li>
    		<li><a href="/about">About</a></li>
    		<li><a href="/contact">Contact</a></li>
    	</ul>
    <!-- .widthWrapper, #top --></div></div>
    Code (markup):
    Since everything else there should likely be added either by scripting, generated content, or not at all. ...and that stupid inaccessible "let's crap on the page by hide/show the menu at narrow widths" IDIOCY topping the list of 'not at all"!

    If you don't "view source" your average turdpress site, theme built with bootcrap, or any of the other half dozen sleazy bloated off the shelf bits of idiocy that's "standard practice" these days and don't have to choke back the bile, you probably have no damned business building a website in the first place!

    ... Oh and I like OOP when it makes sense; it's just not the be-all end all solution most people seem to want it to be, particularly when HTML/CSS framework idiots and people slapping together off the shelf parts they don't understand any old way piss all over the ability of users to actually get to the CONTENT and waste endless resources making a giant train wreck of "HOW NOT TO BUILD A WEBSITE"!

    That's why it's such a laugh when people say HTML 5 is "easier", turdpress is "easier", OOCSS is "easier", LESS is "easier", bootstrap is "easier"...
    [​IMG]

    All that crap just seems like more work to me, not less -- and the end result is so far away from accessible design and proper semantics it's going to bite the site owner in the ass sooner than later; sad part is the majority of people so badly sugar coat it you might as well have injected their arse with a local first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
    deathshadow, Apr 23, 2014 IP
  9. kenzo22

    kenzo22 Member

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    #9
    @deathshadow I understand what you are talking about. I agree that modern libraries and frameworks can be implemented better and often produce too much of unnecessary and sometimes just wrong code, but still, it's convenient to use them. And it pays off. 95% of (freelancers) clients want just a simple website, with a few pages blah blah... They ask people for prices and time it would take and this is what happens: 10 people will say they will do it in one day using WordPress, jQuery, bootstrap ... for something like $100. I do this too, make a code which is... not so perfect ;) but works, take the money and move to another job. Clients don't care about the code etc. and they won't pay me for using pure JS and styling entire website from the scratch which takes much more time (for me). If you have clients/projects that give you time for creating "perfect" code, I'm really jealous but happy for you. However, you should accept why those things like Bootstrap, jQuery, WordPress exist and why they are used so often ;) Cheers!

    @mathewaki Sorry for creating a bit confusing discussion in your topic ;)
     
    kenzo22, Apr 23, 2014 IP
  10. deathshadow

    deathshadow Illustrious Member

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    #10
    That's the part I REALLY don't get... HOW?!? How is writing more markup, more CSS, and having massive libraries you have to learn; or in the case of turdpress it shoving halfwit broken "how not to build a website" code down your throat "convenient"?!?

    If by paying off you mean "raping people who don't know any better's wallet" then sure. Though honestly, someone wants a website for their business and only has a $100 budget, they shouldn't be allowed to have a website for their BUSINESS. a PROPER business website for a legitimate business should have a $1500 or so budget... anything less than half that is probably some fly-by-night scam that's probably not even going to last out the year. Hell, that's often a good litmus test for if you even want to deal with making a site for a business; they come in with a lowball bennie or two figure, the best they can expect is something sleazed out any old way that's the equivalent of throwing money away on NOTHING of value. Most real businesses spend twice that for a months advert in the local fishwrapper!

    ... and a website should REALLY be worth a lot more than a crappy little 15 column-inch ad in a local paper! Any "business" that doesn't realize this, probably shouldn't be allowed to have a web presence.

    Though I've seen plenty of businesses (including former clients) volunteer for a stay in prison, bending themselves over to pick up the soap after painting a bullseye on their backside by cheaping out and crapping together all these 'off the shelf' solutions. Why people think that lining up to get plowed like a field in spring with idiotic halfwit nonsense like turdpress, by paying only $100 for something they don't even understand themselves (and works out to less for the developer than they'd get paid flipping burgers for a living) is a sound business tactic is beyond me.

    It's all one giant sleazeball scam that seems to exist just to rip off people who don't know any better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
    deathshadow, Apr 23, 2014 IP
  11. ketting00

    ketting00 Active Member

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    #11
    I understand why @deathshadow dislikes Wordpress. I can make a website with all functionality similar to wordpress website plus faster load time with one tenth, if not less, of code load (and without JQuery).

    However, Wordpress economy is huge and it can make a developer get rich quick. I know somebody who make more than $2 million out of wordpress. I'm going to pursue his footstep before a landlord kick my hass out.
     
    ketting00, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  12. kolier

    kolier Member

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    #12
    So, I try to define the reality of "Professional" for @deathshadow: Other people can't understand that make you the professional.
    In some how, you are professional in web develop and web design, and you have built your style by picking up some principles from so many choices provided by W3C.
    ID is like person name, Class is like your "Prominent Member" title, in some how, they have something in common, and some people can realize they have unique traits. And you have your choice to just use one and abandon the other.
    That's the point of Modular Mind, you can choose what to attach to your project and which to ignore.
    And I'm not saying that the Modular Mind is the best, but I just figure out since the previous decade, all the computer stuffs become Modular in the develop roadmap. No kidding, all become modular, so you can't blame people to dress not follow the one thousand years ago fashion, just like @kenzo22 and @ketting00 said, people in social need to blend in and stay as the similar guy (not enemy) to survive and not attract attack and make friends.
    And on the way down, Modular Mind may not be the best, but it's better than many other things that existing, and it give many choices, you can see now CSS3 allow Browser maker to build their own property by adding prefix, if it's good and wildly used, it will be taken into CSS3 standard. Modular become easy to contribute, and no tight couple and meant for reusable.
    When computer AI evolves, you will see how this things help computer to terminate humanity in a short time. :D :D :D, Because it's computer thinking, and not human thinking.

    Though, at least you can choose to who you want to be by picking up modules that you want to form your own style.

    And remember, all the professionals in their regions try to make hard for other people to come in to share their profit. Things only could become more complex if that region is not dead.
     
    kolier, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  13. deathshadow

    deathshadow Illustrious Member

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    #13
    Could someone translate that gibberish into ENGLISH for me? Seriously, what on earth is even trying to be said in that mess of incomplete thoughts, unrelated terminology and outright yoda-speak? I make any sense of that, cannot yes?

    Did you use Google translate to rewrite that from Farsi or something? Reads like Jimmy James, Macho business donkey wrestler.
     
    deathshadow, Apr 24, 2014 IP
    Spoiltdiva likes this.
  14. kolier

    kolier Member

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    #14
    I rarely write English articles and doesn't speak English in my daily life, my point is a little psychology, not so technical, so maybe hard to perceive, I can try to just simplify my opinions with bullet points:
    • Professional is who knows the amateurs don't know (yet).
    • Professional need to make things complex to stay in the position:
      • New tech
      • Commercial pattern
      • Other obstacles
    • Current computer world has adapted to the "Modular Mind" for some decades. Almost all the things are Modular nowadays.
    • Modular Design is a fashion, it's a culture, just like the way of different people have their own ways to use/speak/write English.
    • Modular Design is not the best, but better than many design that are existing, it has pros and cons.
    • Modular Design is good for contribution and give choices to developers.
    • Modular Design cause abundance.
    • The complexity is an expression, what causes it is the the root of Modular Design.
    • So I pointed out that you actually hate "Modular Mind"/"Modular Design" in somehow, you want it to be unique, doesn't want multiple ways to achieve one purpose.
      • In some how, you don't like freedom.
      • Freedom without proper restriction would lead to chaos.
    • All the survivors in current situation is to pick up some modules for their own projects.
    • You are a survivor and even a leader that form your own style (brand).
     
    kolier, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  15. kolier

    kolier Member

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    #15
    @mathewaki I recommend the "A List Apart" and "A Book Apart" for your web design career. They are simpler and easier than O'Reilly, SitePoint, ** In Action for new comers.
     
    kolier, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  16. transcendev

    transcendev Member

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    #16
    My suggestion is to go through some video courses on Lynda.com for HTML and PHP if you're looking to get into Web Development. They have some great primer courses that can get you up and running reasonably quickly.
     
    transcendev, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  17. DyslexicCoder

    DyslexicCoder Greenhorn

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    #17
    When I got started with web development a few years ago I made use of YouTube Videos and later on moved to lynda.com. Lynda is a really good place to learn almost all subjects of web development including many business related topics such as Freelancing and Marketing.
     
    DyslexicCoder, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  18. kenzo22

    kenzo22 Member

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    #18
    @deathshadow Adding 3 classes to your containers and having your responsive layout done is convenient, doing an ajax request in one line instead of coding raw http requests is extremely convenient. I mean, I know your point, (you in fact inspired me to create my own library to be more precise, lightweight and still quick), but really - when used appropriately these tools can be really helpful.
    I don't see anything wrong in people with no budget who want to set up a business. They fail in most cases, but they hopefully learn what caused their failure and probably will succeed sooner or later. But their life, their choices.. I'm just making websites for them ;)
     
    kenzo22, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  19. LenKaiser

    LenKaiser Member

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    #19
    @mathewaki If you plan on doing web design professionally I suggest that you do not start with Wordpress. You would find that it would severely limit your possibilities of what type of work you could get from clients and what money you can make. There is a lot more to starting a web design business then sitting at home and playing on the computer all day. And web design is not as easy as you may think it is. Its highly competitive and its REALLY hard to break into the field at all. The last thing you want to do is limit yourself to just one platform.

    If you are planning on doing web design then I suggest that you get some code knowledge under your belt first. There are numerous places online to get info & learn HTML & CSS. I also suggest that you get familiar with JavaScript & PHP as you will more and likely see it eventually as a designer.

    Things you would need to be taken seriously as a web designer:

    1. A HTML/CSS web page completely designed with a portfolio and information about your services, terms etc.
    2. A domain name for that web page.
    3. Hosting for your web page design page.
    4. Many hours to post in various places offering your services.
    5. Decide what your services will be. And decide what you need to learn to accomplish that goal. you may even want to check into your local colleges, some offer web design certificates they will teach you how to code and do the things that you would need to do.
    6. A good knowledge of Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign.
    7. Valid designs. This means that your designs are 100% valid code and you validate each one of them before releasing them to a client. This would include your own personal design web site.
    8. A heck of a lot of time to learn. Its not something you just pick up right away, even the best coders if they taught themselves may have struggled in the beginning.
    9. Some knowledge of PHP & JavaScript always helps especially if you plan on in the future working with scripts like Wordpress or vBulletin, etc.

    You will probably not make a lot of money at the start unless you are pretty good at it. And be prepared to be turned down, ignored etc. when making a quote for a prospective client. Do not sell yourself short if you get started in this. When you make your prices make sure they are compatible with others but do not put them too terribly low or you will get people who want to rip you off, stiff you or they want you to do a thousand things for that little tiny amount and you end up making $5 an hour or something like that.

    If you have a family to support and you have never done ANY web design before i would suggest that you get another job doing something else before you went head long into web design. At least while you learn the skill. Once you learn it and have a portfolio to show then go full time, but at the start I'd go part time and get a regular job to pay my bills. Also at first be prepared for people to ask you to do free designs "just to put it in your portfolio". Its up to you if you want to do that or not, personally I never did, but when i started professionally as a web design I had worked on my own hobby web pages & sites for about 4 or 5 years and already knew how to code HTML & CSS, and it was STILL hard to get started and the competition was STILL very tough even though I had a clue.
     
    LenKaiser, Apr 24, 2014 IP
  20. transcendev

    transcendev Member

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    #20
    @deathshadow man you come off as one angry dude. Gotta say, I agree with just about everything you say about Wordpress. For years I despised it and all the other bloated pre-built frameworks. But the fact is, it's not going away. And more and more clients want to manage content themselves. So...my question to you would be, if you had a client that demanded a CMS...what would you use? Would you build a proprietary CMS?
    I personally have been using Wordpress when clients ask for a CMS. I've created my own proprietary ecommerce system and many other perl and php scripts, but a CMS is not something I've got lying around. I do however create the themes I use on Wordpress from scratch so that they don't end up with ridiculous markup such as your example LI tag with a dozen classes attached.
     
    transcendev, Apr 24, 2014 IP