Kyrgyzstan violence sees Muslims killing Muslims: Muslim nations not providing aid

Off Topic my argument is not with you!

 

It is not Islamic governance, but the recent censorship passed by your court shows the connection between church and state. I have no doubt that same connection prevents prosecution of all types of horrid acts committed in the name of Islam, including the killing of Ahamdis.

As Chaos pointed out, UAE is not a good example. Malaysia is much better, but they too are fighting to keep exemptions for Islam out of their governance.

 

Recent censorship about what?! I cannot recall. I have already mentioned brainwashed religious fanatics. Prosecution is proceeded against that lunatic and he is captured by investigation department FIA. You can say there are people in great number that can be brainwashed in the name of religion.

 

Facebook? Youtube? Censorship by the government(pakistani) based purely on religion(Islam).

Who better to brainwash you than the person you place in charge of your so-called afterlife. I don't think we disagree here. I think you are being naive if you are claiming there are not pro-radical Islam elements within your own government. It seems I've seen Musharrif whining about how tough his job was because of it in television interviews. I suspect Benazir Bhuttos assasination would not have been possible without a little help on the inside.

 

Facebook and youtube issue that's how you can play with emotional part of religion you can learn it too . I was against the ban btw.

If we go back a little back in Gen. Zia-ul-haq regime, all the islamist pro-radicals born in that era with the support of USA to fight against Russians and before that there was no Molvi. Now these people(Talibans and others) are responsible for terrorism in Pakistan apart from other intelligence agencies. People in power use this sentiment to gain support of the people. You might not find anyone who sounds like me, but where I live and people around me we are F***** tired of being counted same as those people.

Musharaf started wiping out these people and now you can see his repute in Pakistan is not good. If you want solution to this problem especially in Pakistan, try to educate people, make them economically strong. I can see our leaders begging for aid from IMF, World Bank and USA. I doubt only a very small amount is invested in education and infrastructure.

I don't talk about Islam neither do I comment about any other religion as you can probably see from my posts, but I talk about things which one can speak individually by assuming what is right and what is wrong.

 

I know. If I recall correctly, one of your fellow Muslims started handing you neg rep when you said so.

I won't deny that. We looked for allies in our "struggle" against the Russians where we could find them. Lets not forget we still having a working relationship with the Saudi's, a horrible government by any measure. Hard to place a proper opinion on relationships of necessity.

Lets be clear about this. The Taliban came after the Muhajadin fighters we worked with in Afghanistan. They are not the same. There may have been some(even many) Muhajadin who became Taliban, but lets not try and say the US created the Taliban, and by extension, the problems in Pakistan. We certainly didn't feed these people their religious beliefs.

That is certainly relieving to hear.

Because there are many in Pakistan who sympathize with those people. I don't agree with wiping anyone out, but those people need to be treated like the criminals they are if they persist in such criminal behavior.

Couldn't agree more, though educating the people will yield its own economic rewards.

Well, for being one of the more moderate voices from Pakistan, you still weigh in pretty heavy against Israel. You watch the video on the other thread of all the people on that boat talking about becoming martyrs and chanting Allah Akbar before their confrontation with the Israeli military and I don't see how you could possibly discuss those issues, and the ones in your country, without talking about Islam.

 

If you ask me, I would support Israel if they bring a peaceful solution to Palestine, Lets say two state solution? It might stop the killings from both sides and to make sure Hamas stop the rocket attacks after the solution there must be UN or any other resolution in this regard. Or they can simply take out Hamas separate army for Palestine to make sure not anything violent happen in future?

 

I like the facts from this academic researcher: http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=28394

What I found fascinating is that while the Muslim world screams about Israel and the need to solve the Israeli/Palestinian issue, or from the Hamas Hezbollah/Iran perspective...they want to destroy Israel...we see that since 1948 the deaths from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are miniscule compared to so much killing around the world in so many places.

What is startling is that while Nightcrawler can't help but claim that Israeli's have killed 8,000 Palestinians...an actual researcher comes up with dramatically different figures...and more killings of both Muslims and Israelis since 1948 in the various conflicts since 1948. This pales in comparison to the more than 10 million Muslims who have killed other Muslims during that period.

Over 10 million!

Over 10 million!

The fundamentalist Muslims use Allah to justify their killings. The mostly, or universally despotic Arab/Muslim nations blame Israel for all the problems in the middle east. Yet, since 1948 these massive murders have occurred amongst Muslims....and they don't do a thing about it:...

A couple of examples:

1. 1980-1988 Iraq/Iran war about 1 million Muslims killed one another
2. 1980's-1990's about 300,000 Kurds killed by Turks, Iranians, and Iraqi's
3. 1970's-2003 Saddam against various Iraqi's (excluding Kurds) about 300,000
4. Iranian Revolution: 1978 1979. Iranians killed about 80,000 of their own people (wonder how many have been killed recently post the last election
5. Lebanon Civil War 1975-1990 about 150,000 (okay Muslims and Christian Lebanese killing one another)
6. Jordan Government against Palestinians 1970-1971 About 25,000 (oooh those Arab nations don't like Palestinians)
7. Kuwait War Iraqi's killing Kuwaiti's 140,000

Now this same source totals a number of dead from Israeli/Arab conflicts that is far larger than that which nightcrawler's cites: About 51,000 in total with about 35,000 of them being Muslim(from various Arab nations and Palestinians) and 16,000 being Israeli.

To put it in perspective of the over 11 muslims who have died in violence since about 1948 over 90% of them have died at the hands of other Muslims while about 0.3% have died at the hands of Israeli's.

Now since all this killing, Israel has made peace with Egypt and kept it. No more Israeli's and Egypitians killing one another. Israel and Jordan have made peace. No more Jordanian's and Israeli's killing one another in war.

Israel returned Gaza to Palestinians jointly governed by Fatah and Hamas. Hamas violently killed Fatah, drove them out of Gaza in 2007 and since then have sent 10,000 deadly rockets into Israel, trying to kill Israeli's. Israel defends itself.

Somehow the world has lost sight of the fact that Muslims are slaughtering Muslims everywhere....but the Muslim world unremittingly advertises that Israel is the villain.

I think Muslims should stop slaughtering one another, stop blaming Israel, and start taking care of their own people. Maybe then these nations primarily backwards, oppressive, restrictive, and harsh would see some progress like many parts of the world since 1948

 

earlpearl you need to read my previous replies in which I have mentioned the reasons and Obamanation also agreed to that.

You didn't quoted world war I and II killings?!! Who killed who?

 

You are wrong, as I showed in another thread the number of Mexicans killing Mexicans (drug war) is higher than the number of Muslim killings in the whole world. I can not understand what kind of help are you asking for since you already admitted that there is no reason or logic in killings and therefore there is no underlying problem that can be resolved. So forever, Christians kill Christians, Israelis kill Arabs,Muslim kill Muslims, Americans kill Arabs and Afghanis and Mexicans kill Mexicans.

 

GWorld: I don't agree with you at all. The article I cited is one of a type of historical articles that has analyzed the 2nd half of the 20th centurty. These articles and analyses have noted that while during the first half of that century there were 2 world wars, the 2nd half of the century was similarly violent. This particular article notes the massive amt of violence.

It goes on to put the deaths in the Israeli/Palesinian conflicts in perspective with the other genocides and wars since WWII and further puts into the perspective the killing of Muslims by Israeli's in that conflict versus the widespread Muslim on Muslim killings in many nations that have occurred. Its quite widespread in many nations.

You say, Christians kill Christians forever. Well of interest, if you look at nations and areas where there was not widespread killings since the end of WWII you will find parts of the world where these genocides haven't occurred. They haven't occurred in the US, in Western Europe, in Japan by example. The killings may be a part of history. There is also a part of history when and where they stop. They can stop.

You previously referenced Mexico. I would say Mexicans are killing Mexicans right now. Its dangerous. I've been to Mexico quite a few times. I wouldn't go now. Its dangerous. Too many killings. Too many innocents dying. That wanton criminal element is spreading into the Southwest border of the US, Southern California, etc. I'm not a hard ass about illegal aliens, etc. But the actual lawlessness is dangerous. I just read how there are low lying mountains in the desolate areas of Southern Arizona and/or Southern New Mexico where the drug lords have wrested control from the US. (they need to be confronted and driven out, IMHO)

In any case, look at the last 60 years and there are parts of the world where the wanton killings haven't occurred. It doesn't always have to be that way.

But Muslims are slaughtering Muslims. Basically to the tune of about 10 million since the end of WWII.

They don't care. They do care and scream, point a finger and address whenever there is a killing of Muslims by Israeli's or by Americans or other Westerners. Whenever a non-Muslim kills a Muslim they raise it into a holy war crisis, inciting other Muslims to attack non-Muslims. It is why this Muslim inspired violence doesn't end. They ignore what they do to one another. They go bananas and crazy and incite further killings by any incident by a Non-Muslim.

Consider the following:

In August of 2004 Al-Sadr gathered his forces, attacked the Iranian provisional forces and US forces in the city of Najaf. They operated out of the Imam Ali Mosque, considered the third holiest mosque amongst Shiities.

The Al-Sadr'ists holed up in the Mosque, fighting primarily American forces. The fighting went on for quite a while.

Here is what the US didn't do. It didn't bomb the mosque. Here is the easiest thing the US could have done. Bomb the mosque. It didn't.

Now consider how many mosques Muslims bomb with other Muslims in them. Dozens? Hundreds? Possibly thousands? How many of their own do they kill in these bombings? Totals Hundreds of thousands?

Muslims got all riled up, pissed and crazy when a Danish cartoonist drew a satirical cartoon of Mohammed. Ultimately they killed people in their responses including and specifically Westerners. All about a frigging cartoon.

Muslims slaughter their own kind in the millions, desecrate their own houses of worship, ignore the fact that the West respects these places, and in a midst of a war, sacrificed its own soldiers and safety simply not to destroy a mosque.....while Muslims blow em up willy nilly.

Muslims slaughter one another. They bring religeon and craziness into fights and wars with non Muslims screaming all kinds of mindless worthless crap.

The non-Muslim world and the Muslim world should be ever more aware of the incredible non-stop violence they bring upon one another and how long this has been going on non-stop, every time they make some utterly nonsensical attack on Westerners, Israeli's or whomever.

Currently the Islamic world is a vicious dangerous crazed world dominated by murdererous elements with no controls. Its claims simply have no credibility.

 

The better question is to ask why these killings doesn´t happen in Western Europe, Japan or USA anymore. It doesn´t happen anymore because the underlying problems are solved. The WWI and WWII was not a result of Christians liking to kill Christians. It was the result of socio-economic of that period and different capitalist countries try to establish their supremacy which end by USA victory. Read the history of Japan and what they have done to Chinese, Koreans and others. Did the Japanese miraculously changed one day as people? No, the situation was changed when Japan lost the WWII.

Let´s look at your examples.

1) Iran and Iraq war was direct result of Iranian revolution which made Saddam believe that Iranian army was weak and he could take over the Iranian water way and possibly south of Iran. It took 8 years because both Russia and USA were supplying both side with arms. USA was supplying Iran by proxy through Israel since Iranian air force is made up of American jet fighters.

2) Direct result of WWI broken promise by English to Kurds that they should have their own country. Both Iran and Iraq were using the other side Kurds as pawns in their fight. later USA also got involved in the game and start using Kurds against Saddam which resulted in Iraq army retaliation against Kurds.

3) Saddam killing Shea Muslims after USA used them to make problem for him by promising that USA will protect them but later abandoned them to be killed.

4) Iranian Revolution, part of green belt of Islam in front of Soviet Strategy. The king was dying and no popular support. USA did not want a repeat of Cuba or El Salvador, so replaced the king with a Islamic government.

I let you do your own studies about the other ones in your examples. It is a nonsense to claim the war and killing in Iraq is because Muslims want to kill Muslims while you know that the situation is direct result of USA invasion and power vacuum that it created.

 

earlpearl I just wanted to see the world war I and II killings statistics against your claim...

 

GWorld: Every time the Islamic fundamentalists unleash an attack they invoke religion. They use religion to justify their killings. Most of the people they kill end up being Muslims. When the Islamic world attacks Israel or claims that Israeli's are evil they invoke some stuff about Islamic brotherhood and Arab brotherhood. And of course when the Islamic world went bonkers because of some danish cartoon, they screamed and screamed about their religion and killed some non muslims in the process.

The Islamic world suffers from this ongoing process. It probably has more nations with more resources and yet less development than anywhere in the world. Its people are primarily impoverished and uneducated. It abuses women and treats them as dirt. It is a backwards world that has essentially huge populations of people who are living in abuse.

The Islamic world needs to realize they kill one another. In fact they slaughter one another. That occurs when they simply aren't abusing one another. Part of the time, during the last 60 years or so, since WWII they kill a lot of Palestinians or drive them out of this Arab nation or that Arab nation.

Islamic anger is an excuse not to look at their own miserable world which they created, they tolerate, and they don't deal with directly. Meanwhile, they are busy terrorizing the rest of the world when they have a chance.

I, and others, will keep repeating that Muslims slaughter Muslims, just so long as it keeps occurring.

 

I think above quote shows clearly that you don´t know very much about the subject that you are posting. Your fantasies about middle east is very different from reality. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to those areas?

 

So Iran is representative of most Muslim nations? If so can we assume that most Muslim nations shoot their political opponents and directly fund terrorist organizations? Can we assume most Muslim lands deny the holocaust and call for the destruction of Jews, since Iran is such a good example? Or is it that the educated population in Iran is rising up against their religious leadership for exactly the reason's Earlpearl stated.

 

LOL.

I don´t like Christianity or any other religion but have you heard the expression, "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone ". You are living in a country that kidnaps people from around the world, runs secret prison/torture centers around the world and tried by all means to deny POW their rights and you complain about Iran executing the political opponents?

 

It amazes me that you use quotes from the bible "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone" and at the same time express your dislike to Christianity.
It showed Jesus' was wise, forgiving and to show who is really the "hypocrite". In every country, it is very likely you'll find corruption at some point but terrorism that is another whole issue that has its roots.

 

GWorld:

I'm going to respond to your citation and questions. I'm going to ask a couple of questions. Please respond directly.

the citation:

Your question: Have I been to the Islamic or Arab part of the world?

I have not been to the Arab or Islamic part of the world. I am related by marriage to an Iranian. I know many of her family and friends. They all left Iran after the revolution in the late 1970's. Her family and friends left because of political oppression. I worked with an Iraqi woman who is an accomplished civil engineer and at one point headed one of the largest offices of one of the largest civil engineering companies in the world. Very accomplished person/woman. Very nice. Very smart. She received her advanced degrees in the West. I met some of her family. They left Iraq because of oppression and lack of opportunities.

Impressive statistics about Iranian education.

I now have some questions concerning Iranian beliefs. Not sure if they reflect Iranian education or are the beliefs that the current government espouses.

Ahmidajad, the Iranian honcho has stated the following:

1. The holocaust is a myth. Do you believe that? Further do you believe that is a responsible comment by the head of a country?

2. Ahmidajad has claimed that there are no gays in Iran. Do you believe that? Do you believe their advances in education and widespread education for women and in other ways has created a scientific, or perhaps a religious mechanism that eliminates gays from the population?

3. Do you believe that the elimination of gays is a response to a terrific education system? If not, to what do you attribute this proclamation? Its an interesting proclamation. One would think that the GOP and fundamentalist American Christians, and their right wing supporters would like to make the same claim. If it was based in truth one would think that this science and advance in education or religion would be imported into the bible belt south of the US.

 

a-actually both side has been actively seeking participation of the rest of the world in their affair. Israel has been getting support from some parts and palestanians from others.
b-what is your sugestion. if you were the one that everyone would listen to. what would you say israeli and palestanians should do? or do you think we should let them continue killing each other and why?
c-have you asked yourself that when you try to compare muslem and christian wars and atrocities why you draw the time line at where you draw it? why don't you want to start at 1901 for example? i am not only asking this about what you have posted in this thread but since you have talked about this in multiple places.
d-do you need to feel that muslem life has less value because they fight each other for one reason or another? does that make it easier for you to feel the way you feel about the situation in palestanian/israeli conflict?