Islam what it really is

Actually Kalvin is showing the opposite. The proof is in the pudding, there are a number of those who follow islam including the part about kiling infidels.

We see it on a daily basis throughout the world. Ignorance would be if Kalvin didn't know about the killings that are by following the koran.

 

Such as by rejecting Islam or preaching a religion that is contrary to Islam. Or living in a land that Muslims claim is theirs...

Again, not helping.

Also, when the Koran talks about compulsion it's talking about converting people. When the Koran talks about killing unbelievers it's not making an effort to convert those unbelievers. It just wants them dead.

That's the point.

Muslim terrorists are not trying to convert people by force. They just want them dead. So the "no compulsion" verse doesn't apply. You also have to realize that the terrorists want to force people to be subject to their laws, not their religion. Again "no compulsion in religion" doesn't apply. The Islamic terrorists would be happy to just make non-Muslims second class citizens.

This whole war with Islam has nothing to do with converting anyway. It has to do with control and putting everyone under Sharia law. If you want to convert to Islam, that's your choice. But, if you don't at least subject yourself to Sharia law then you're fair game for murder.

As is allowed by the Koran. There's nothing more confusing in the land than having ideas contrary to Islam floating around. The Koran requires that people know what to believe: as it claims "the truth is evident." The Koran allows the murder of those who make the truth unclear. That's fine if you don't believe but you cannot do anything cause confusion: put ideas in people's heads that make them question Islam.

So you can't confuse conversion to Islam with forcing Sharia law on people.

Why is it that a non-Muslim can make the Koran not contradict itself but Muslims can't?

 

Speaking of "Confusion in the Land" (the catchall of justified murder by Muslims)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330333,00.html

That's the justification for making sure Valentine's Day is ignored in Kuwait

That other problem with that verse is that it is speaking to all Muslims. It is not telling the government that they can put to death people who murder or cause confusion in the land. It's telling every single individual muslim they have the right to kill someone who murders or causes confusion in the land.

 

Islam, Judaism, Christianity... all are the same.

Christians had no problem beheading other people in the past. Good thing is that western world is mostly secular now so they cannot continue with it. Islam world hasn't evolved yet... it is the same as Christian world was few centuries ago.

And about verses in Quoran...

Go read Old Testament... Christian god killing little children and ordering raping women and burning down whole cities is pretty usual there. Few cruel verses in Quoran you say... there are certainly more in Bible.

 

This is what your defense of Islam has been reduced to?

The western world was built up by Christians. America was not founded on secularism.

I've read the OT. There are stories of God killing lots of people.

There are exactly zero verses giving an open ended command to all believers to kill. The government is allowed to put people to death for the crime of murder.

All the OT battles were lead by prophets or kings. Or God himself whiped out people without the help of men.

In the Koran, any Muslim can kill someone accused of Murder or "causing corruption in the land"

There is no concept of authority in the Koran.

That's the difference between the Koran and the OT. In the OT God worked through leaders to conquer the wicked. In the Koran, God calls on all believers to kill the wicked.

Why do you think terrorist organizations have no central authority? The Koran doesn't require it. All Christian conquests were carried out by a central leader.

 

I'm not defending islam. I am atheist. But some people here are describing it as much worse than other religions. I don't think so. Most of religions are equally bad.

Yes there is direct speech of god commanding Jews to burn down the whole city and kill also children and rape women. For instance:

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

That was direct speech of your god. And many others.

Well. Murder is murder no matter if the murderer is muslim or christian. I don't understand how you can favor so cruel wicked god - he has no problem wiping whole cities and killing little children but that doesn't matter to you.

 

Yeah, he was talking to Moses about a specific people that were not good to the Jews. And guess what happened? Moses didn't like the idea so he let some of the women live. He was a softie. The children of those women grew up and then enslaved the Jews.

Whoops. Turns out that children of your enemy's women can be quite vindictive.

God doesn't see age or gender. And for good reason. See above. God isn't going around telling prophets to lead his people to utterly destroy an enemy anymore. The Koran doesn't have that pesky problem of requiring prophets to lead you to kill those who bring about "confusion in the land." Any Muslim has the authority to kill someone who breaks that law.

I don't know, maybe you've noticed but Christians have not had a prophet since Jesus Christ and he wasn't here to lead an army to smite the enemies of God. So we're done even bothering to wait for such an order. The Bible is quite clear God will destroy the earth and take care of the wicked without our help and I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure he's not going to wait until there are no people under a certain age acceptible to you before he starts his judgement.

And I quote myself

You've failed to provide one.

Or did you think taking it out of context proved something? Round and round the hamster wheel we go.

What part of the Koran do you think matches the NT? You have to go all the way back more than 500 years before Christ in the Bible to find an example of a good solid smitting. What's the equivlent set of books in the Koran that puts an end to the smiting?

If Christians only had the OT, you might have some shred of a point. But they live in the NT. There is no NT in the Koran. It will always be what it is now.

 

Well, you can read whole chapter and you will see it's in no way taken out of context. Or better read whole Numbers and there you will find lots of other examples.

Islam is much younger than Christianity. You seem to be very sure it is already complete. There might come something like muslim New Testament in futher future...

It took few milleniums to add NT to OT. Islam had only little part of that time

Wow. Moses was so softie... he actually let some of women live so they had few free prostitutes... I don't want to imagine what they had to do...

Great reasoning. So it's allright to slaughter them...

 

Except for the minor detail that God was talking directly to Moses. Not to believers in general.

The Bible is a historic text. Claiming that we should do what Moses did is as idiodic as claiming we should fight the south because Lincoln did. Or that we should go storm the Bastille because the French did.

The Koran is an instructional text for all Muslims.

Huge difference.

The Koran has one author. Unless Mr Pbuh plans on coming back from the dead there will never be more Koran.

If God tells you to and you've just freed your people from the most powerful ruler in the world with nothing more than a walking staff and some impressive miracles, I think you might want to listen to that God of yours. You might not like it, but God has that authority.

You have found zero calls for all believers for all time to kill anyone. All you can find is God telling the leaders of his people to lead an army against an enemy.

In fact it says quite plainly "thou shalt not kill." That is the command to all believers. Just like in any civilized society today, unless you get the okay from the government, you have no right to kill anyone for any reason or you could be put to death.

It's an authority structure. Something the Koran wouldn't know anything about.

 

Exodus 32:27 (King James Version)

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

-----------------------------------

Numbers 25:4 (King James Version)

4And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

-----------------------------------

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

-----------------------------------

I tried to demonstrate how absurd is believing this god could actually love people. If he did, he wouldn't act as the most evil murderer.

Government has no right to murder... According to Bible only god has right to take someone's life cause he gave us life. It is not people who should decide who will live and who will die. He will.

 

The government has a right to put people to death for crimes.

You have still failed to show any verses that call for the death to all unbelievers.

You have only shown God telling his prophet or king to lead his people against specific enemies. I don't suppose you've stopped to consider why God had some enemies completely destroyed and others were conquered.

In the Iraq war soldiers face the very real problem of having to kill women and children. Why? Because the terrorists are not just men. A child or women with an AK-47 or suicide vest is just as much a legitimate military target as a man with the same.

Did you ever think that maybe the women and children had to be destroyed because they were as wicked as the men?

If you had women and children shooting at you in a war would you not shoot them back?

God established the death penalty for murder and false prophets. So maybe you should try reading that Bible a little closer.

If a prophet claimed a future event in God's name and that event didn't happen they were put to death. All prophets had to be tested. Until they could be shown to be 100% accurate they were not believed. If they lied they got put to death.

The Koran is all about killing the unbelievers. The label in the Bible is "the wicked" and when it talks about "the wicked" only God is mentioned to be responsible for destroying them.

And why would the Bible talk about killing the "wicked" and not "unbelievers?" Because the Bible is fully aware that there are wicked believers as well.

According to the Koran, it doesn't matter how "wicked" you are, all that matters is if you're a muslim or not a muslim.