1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Is GW the worse President in the last 70 years?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by rah1010, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. AGS

    AGS Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,543
    Likes Received:
    257
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    265
    #121
    I'm laughing my ass off with you bro. :D
     
    AGS, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  2. tidusyuna

    tidusyuna Banned

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    5
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #122
    Im laughing at something else I suppose. Maybe we have different senses of humor.
     
    tidusyuna, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  3. LogicFlux

    LogicFlux Peon

    Messages:
    2,925
    Likes Received:
    102
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #123
    If you guys disagree with the articles gtech posted then please explain why. And if you do, please use comparably well sourced articles from well known news organizations that are written by people that have the credentials to call themselves experts on the subject.
    In my opinion gtech presents a solid, well researched argument and I hear nothing of the sort from the opposition. The best argument I've heard in here to refute that Iraq is working and the surge is working was by grim several weeks ago, and that argument only consisted of his non-expert opinion that it 'just can't continue to be stable' or something of that nature. It was a really weak argument that seemed to rely mostly on clairvoyance but it's still much better than the "I'm laughing my ass off" argument.
     
    LogicFlux, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  4. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #124
    The problem is we have in fact disputed this argument over and over and over again, that is why I myself am not going to continue to do it. I brought up a few extremely quick points, even sourced something which did refute Gtechs post.
    'weak' argument, plus when am I in fact stating 'Iraq is not working'

    :rolleyes:

    I am bringing up points to simply keep people awake and not fall into the trap of letting your guard down. I brought up points our very own military has brought up, but yeah that's 'weak' uh huh..
     
    GRIM, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  5. LogicFlux

    LogicFlux Peon

    Messages:
    2,925
    Likes Received:
    102
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #125
    If my memory isn't failing me, you claimed pretty confidently and unequivocally that the surge wouldn't continue to work or at least that stability wouldn't persist beyond the surge. You seemed so sure of it as if you were seeing it in your crystal ball as you typed it.
     
    LogicFlux, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  6. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #126
    Your memory is failing you ;)

    So stating what experts and our own military says is a bad thing, I'll add you to the likes of Gtech.

    Speaking of which he continues to bring up me being against the surge, when in fact all I did was argue with what our military leaders stated.

    http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=5023983&postcount=48
     
    GRIM, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  7. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,347
    Likes Received:
    848
    Best Answers:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    435
    #127
    Which surge?

    Adding some more soldiers which still puts us far below what should have been there in the first place - or the real surge in money we have been using to buy temporary peace? Once we stop paying off certain Iraqis all will go right back to where it was - there has been no substantive progress toward a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Hopefully we can find a way to extricate ourselves from the entire debacle without making it worse for everyone.
     
    browntwn, Aug 13, 2008 IP
    GRIM likes this.
  8. GTech

    GTech Rob Jones for President!

    Messages:
    15,836
    Likes Received:
    571
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #128
    More dishonesty, as usual. The fact is, grim and his little gang don't have the ability to stand behind their opinions. Bringing up unsourced "extremely quick points" is mere opinion. Your sourced was a farce and said nothing about paying al sadr off not to fight.

    More dishonest again. As usual, I provide sourced documentation to counter those who are giving surge credit away to terrorists, and some simply make up pretend military experts to back up their opinion.


    Your memory is served well. grim has a habit of changing his positions and taking on multiple positions all the time. Especially when backed into a corner.

    "The Surge." The one that has been in place the last 18 months. If you have a source to verify "peace has been bought," then post it. Grim's miserable failure at it was nothing short of a joke.
     
    GTech, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  9. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #129
    Hopefully we can
     
    GRIM, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  10. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,347
    Likes Received:
    848
    Best Answers:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    435
    #130
    First of all, I think we should have had far more of our Armed Forces in Iraq throughout the entire mission. The surge was just a late attempt at fixing what was a lack of appropriate forces from the beginning. It is a tribute to our men that they were as successful as they were without the proper number of men in Iraq.

    As far as paying Iraqis for peace, I get much of my information from sources other than the Internet. If I come across something on this point that is linkable, I will be sure to add it and post it here or let you know the source. I have heard many interviews with Iraqis whom we now consider helping us who openly say that they are doing it only for the money the US is paying them. When that money ceases they will fight as necessary to protect their own interests. If Iraqis want a civil war amongst themselves, lets get out of the way, and let them do it. I don't want to spill more American blood just to postpone it.

    I supported the invasion of Iraq at the time, based on what I think we all knew at the time. I think the war was not managed well and far too many people in positions of power did not give sufficient planning to various potentially problematic areas - instead they assumed things would work out. Our armed forces have done a incredible job - I think it is the civilian leadership that has not put the armed forces in a position to "win".
     
    browntwn, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  11. GTech

    GTech Rob Jones for President!

    Messages:
    15,836
    Likes Received:
    571
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #131
    Thanks for the followup, browntwn.

    I had a gut feeling it was opinion, but I wanted to make sure. Hindsight and speculation are fine, at times. My point in taking grim's comments to task are the notion that "we've" paid for peace (giving credit away from our troops and generals who have done a remarkable job) and the notion that "Bush lied to get us into a war."

    I'm going to stick with those, and not allow myself to get sidetracked on hindsight and speculation. The surge has worked very well over the past year. Arm chair quarterbacking is easy to do from the sidelines. The notion that "we've" paid anyone off to not fight is left-wing mantra and I've seen no credible reports anywhere to suggest there is any truth to this. I believe I've provided very credible evidence to shoot both of these down and I believe this notion takes away the successes our troops have laid down their lives for. I cannot see any way to subscribe to the idea that our troops were not responsible for the success of the Surge while simultaneously saying they've done a great job.
     
    GTech, Aug 13, 2008 IP
  12. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

    Messages:
    11,324
    Likes Received:
    615
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    310
    #132
    Let's stop the BS and answer a simple question:

    Who do you think knows more about if Iraq had WMD, Bush and the head of NSA who said there was no WMD or Corporal potato who claims Iraq had WMD? :rolleyes:
     
    gworld, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  13. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #133
    I have linked to them before, they go 'unnoticed' as if you don't notice the links you can still try to spew that we don't do it.

    This is common knowledge, we have been paying Iraqi's for years to not fight, to change sides, to turn in their weapons, it's nothing new. How anyone can try to claim it is not happening really goes to the heart of the issue, the issue being they obviously live in a fantasy world.

    US bribe insurgents to fight Al-Qaeda
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2413200.ece

    I'm sure the next link will be attacked, simply came up in a search, it however restates info I have read a hundred times before and heard on TV news. Plus remember the pro war people can use far right wing sources all the time with no backing up of their sources other than that, however dare someone use something that is not mainstream or that is not right wing and you'll be butchered!
    Paying Insurgents Not to Fight
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19384.htm

    The Money Weapon
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dot.comments/2008/08/the_money_weapon.html

    Ex-insurgents Want More Money, or Else
    http://www.military.com/news/article/exinsurgents-want-more-money-or-else.html?col=1186032310810


    Or how about a different method.
    US Paying to plant articles in Iraqi Papers
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/politics/01propaganda.html?pagewanted=all

    http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/30/world/fg-infowar30


    But yeah it's not happening. Lets keep our heads in the sand, this way we can play dumb and continue to argue with a few sources links and act like it never happened, keeping our argument sound possible to the unsuspecting people who don't do any research themselves.
     
    GRIM, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  14. PHPGator

    PHPGator Banned

    Messages:
    4,437
    Likes Received:
    133
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    260
    #134
    It is hard to say at this point. I think most people will consider him to be a pretty bad president if the economy and things improve in the next term. Then again, if we pull out of Iraq and have a few major attacks on America, we might have a little bit different view of him since he has at least taken some measures to protect us (regardless of how you feel about them).
     
    PHPGator, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  15. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #135
    Well if attacks happen 'after' we pull out of Iraq logic would dictate that invading Iraq in fact made us less safe as Iraq was not truly where the terrorists were before we invaded Iraq.

    'yeah, yeah a few were there' just like a few are in damn near any country. BTW since when was the US ever attacked by terrorists on a frequent timing basis in the US?
     
    GRIM, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  16. PHPGator

    PHPGator Banned

    Messages:
    4,437
    Likes Received:
    133
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    260
    #136
    I think what we're seeing though is that they all flooded into Iraq when the war started. Once the war stops, if they are angry enough, they will try to find a way to get over here. We'll see though... I'm sure the media will be spinning it in your direction though. :)

    It would be quite ironic because when 9/11 occurred Bush was bashed hard because it was "on his watch" that it happened. However, the same wouldn't apply if it were on Obama's, would it?
     
    PHPGator, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  17. GRIM

    GRIM Prominent Member

    Messages:
    12,638
    Likes Received:
    733
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #137
    Ahh facts are 'my direction'
    The war caused them to go into Iraq, caused a huge surge in new sign ups to Al Queda How that is 'spinning' anything is truly puzzling.
    Why wouldn't it be?

    Or are you one of those who thinks simply because I do not support the war or Bush I am an Obama fan?
     
    GRIM, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  18. PHPGator

    PHPGator Banned

    Messages:
    4,437
    Likes Received:
    133
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    260
    #138
    I don't "support" the war either. I am just pointing out that there is a double standard for many people. A lot of people criticized Bush over 9/11 occuring on "his watch". But you made the comment that it would still be Bush's fault if we get attacked after the war even though it will be on someone elses watch. I think the media who is certainly on the left would do the same. Do you not agree?
     
    PHPGator, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  19. GTech

    GTech Rob Jones for President!

    Messages:
    15,836
    Likes Received:
    571
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #139
    Paying a few groups to assist in the fight is NOT the equivalent to paying for peace, paying al sadr not to fight, etc. No one works for free. The Iraqi Army is paid, the US Forces are paid, and there's no question a few small groups have been paid to assist in that fight. How anyone can sit by and give credit to a few small groups being paid, as the basis for diminished violence is beyond me.

    The idea that terrorists are paid not to fight being the reason for success is simply delusional. From what I've seen the past few days, the Surge is being declared "over" and troop withdrawls are ramping up. I'm sure that "victory" will disappoint a few, as is already apparent, but they will just have to get used to success for a change.

    There's no question that a few hate-filled people will try to give credit away to a few small groups that were paid for their assistance. However, that's simply dishonest. "Our" (depending on whose side you are on) men and women did a remarkable job and laid their lives on the line to make the Surge successful.
     
    GTech, Aug 14, 2008 IP
  20. GTech

    GTech Rob Jones for President!

    Messages:
    15,836
    Likes Received:
    571
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #140
    Sorry to see you were banned. No surprise though. Around here, when someone doesn't like what you have to say, they run and cower behind moderators and report posts to quell opposition from anyone that disagrees with their left-wing mantras.
     
    GTech, Aug 14, 2008 IP