Is GW the worse President in the last 70 years?

Yep, I live in the greatest country in the world...the United States of America. The very country that you and several other first and second generation immigrants denigrate at every opportunity. I will always stand by her side and I will always defend her from those who take her for granted and sell her out for mere popularity contests.

Thanks Jeremy. It always means a lot coming from those who truly love our country and are not blinded by hatred like so many others here.

The truth is, grim, you are simply incapable of debating facts. Other than using influence with moderators to have my posts that point out your consistent hypocrisy deleted, like you did yesterday, you really aren't capable of much more. There was a time, though...when facts meant more to you than opinions. But there is no popularity in that. Popularity is important, reassurance is important, and the only way to achieve those is to "join the crowd."

You have me on ignore because I remind you of what you used to be. Rational, level headed and capable of debating a point with facts and sources. There was a time...remember? I remember. I remember a grim that was passionate about the truth, a grim that was relentless in debate because he had his facts straight and could find a loophole out of just about everything, because you were using your brain. I remember a grim that would challenge the left AND the right and wasn't afraid to put some effort into sourcing his belief. Now days, it seems like all we see is three options:

1) Dismiss everything with casual contempt without effort to factually prove otherwise, or

2) Use influence with moderators to have posts deleted that you don't care for.

3) both 1 and 2.

Why do you think I "push" you grim? Because I know you are better. I know you are better than to be sitting around a forum getting your ass slapped every now and then with a few kudos by those that have demonstrated over and over again a sincere hatred for anything America. That's not you, grim. You're better than that, you are better than "them." There was a time when you would have never turned a blind eye to some of their hateful comments. Now days, it's the norm. That's why I push you, grim. I know you are better than that.

Just like in High School. There were the jocks, the bookworms, the band groups, the choir groups, the debate groups and then....there were the stoners. And if you couldn't fit in anywhere else, the stoners would always take whatever was left over. Only today, the "stoners" are the "anti-Americans" on this forum, or rather "the crowd" as I call it above, and to be honest grim, you can do better than "the stoners."

Grim is a fierce and competitive debater when he really tries. We've had long drawn out debates going back to 2006. When he really takes the time, does his research and stands behind his positions with source and fact, he can decimate the best of them. Unfortunately, that's just not possible when positions are based upon popularity and lack any credible fact to back them up.

I'll make a screen capture of this post, grim. That way if you have it deleted, I'll have a record of it. Come on, man, the least you can do is try.

 

This really isn't fair to stoners. 1. Stoners love everybody, especially if they have cupcakes to share. 2. Stoners build things, like awesome water pipes out of nothing but a few lug bolts and parts from an old shop vac. The anti-US crowd only knows how to tear things down.

 

I find nothing wrong with 'stoners'

I also don't see people who do not agree with our current administration as being 'anti-US' or 'tearing' America down.

I do see those who support the administration, even it's horrible and bungling decisions through thick and thin as a serious danger to this great land however.

 

There's nothing wrong with being against the war, in and of itself.
But, for example, you're quick to jump on people for suggesting that Iraq is working(even though it clearly is) while you're silent when people call our servicemen and women murderers, just by virtue of them being U.S. soldiers.
And for the record, I'm not a Bush supporter and never have been, but I don't think he's the devil either.

 

I'm silent when our men and woman are called murders? Really? I know for a fact I have defended our serviceman on multiple threads.

I also from the last discussion on what is going on in Iraq that I can remember where it entailed 'was something working' the 'surge' simply stated the position that was coming direct from our military in Iraq.

I think you need to know facts before you post in all honesty.

 

Yeah, this forum's favorite patriot, Paul Revere, I mean gorilla called our servicemen and women murderers and you passively supported the troops in a non-confrontational way without ever really addressing it directly with gorilla. But when I stated the objective truth about the state of Iraq, that it really seems to be working, including the surge, man did you get hot. You seemed really willing to debate me on whether or not things are going well in Iraq.
Are you against the fact that Iraq is working because it undermines the position that you've put so much energy into over the last few months/years or is it just old fashioned ego?

 

I actually did call G on it. If I remember correctly with the thread with G several others were already in a hot debate with him, making it not really necessary for me to go balls all on it IMO.

I got 'hot' as you put it as I like facts, not fantasy land.

I hope Iraq can 'work' so we can get the fuxx out, I'd like nothing better. Believing in fantasies however helps nobody, it only sets us up to the same mistake as those who bought everything going into Iraq.

BTW reread the start of the thread you are speaking of where I get involved with you..

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=8508313&postcount=581

 

I know it's hard if you've been pushing the anti-war argument for months or years to suddenly concede that our efforts in Iraq are bearing fruit. It takes an ability to completely put the ego aside. Not many people would be able to do it so I kind of understand. But I think examining the difference in intensity that you put into different arguments indicates something more than a normal and expected bruised ego.

 

You are so off base it's not even a joke.

I would LOVE to say without a doubt that things are working. Our OWN military however continues to state it's a far way from 'complete' there are many things that can happen, but yeah lets just stick our heads in the sand and say things are swell.

I do not like to put my guard down, it's as simple as that. I like to listen to the experts who know what they are talking about, what can and more than likely will happen when we leave, not simply because of what is happening under basically martial law and paying off Iraqi civilians.

How anyone can not see that is extremely 'illogical' ever thing of changing your user name?

 

Nor do I. But that's not the issue. It's a good scapegoat to fall back on, but I don't believe many are going to accept that excuse any more. There are plenty of people here who DO NOT support Bush, but STILL support American and defend her against the hatred of those in your circle.

It's not about agreeing with the administration, it's about tearing America down on a daily basis and giving aid and comfort to those that do so. It's about making false accusations that are simply dishonest, and giving a pass to them. It's about four year patriotism. Patriotism doesn't have a four year shelf life and giving a pass to those that dishonestly say things about "our" country because you just don't happen to like the current administration is sad.

That's what happens when popularity is more important than facts.

Yes, grim. *Really*, you are. Perhaps every single instance? No, but generally, yes. When G calls them "purveyors of genocide" and "war criminals" and other such terms, coupled with his other mass flavors of hated...you are silent. You give a pass. When he calls the administration of the USA "war criminals," you give a pass, but when a Jew from Israel calls the leadership of Iran "monkeys" you suddenly take the high moral road and chastise him about being a hateful bigot. That's hypocrisy, grim. You can have a moderator delete this post again, if you want, but it is the truth. And you are better than that. At least you used to be.

No you didn't. If you had, you would have sourced it. The surge is working. It was working a year ago when I first started posting about it and you spent nearly fifteen pages in a thread demonstrating disappointment over source after source after source that I provided. And it's gotten even better since then. You may not like it, but it IS the truth. I can source it all again and we can play the denial game with not counter sources, but that would be taking the easy road out, again.

Exactly! G says some of the most hateful things of anyone on this forum. But, since it's about America, it seems to be acceptable and tolerable. I remember a time when Grim would have ripped G a new ass so hard, G would have had to go to Walmart to buy a new "made in China" ass.

It's really a shame that a few people believe that standing up for America might somehow, someway, equate to supporting Bush. Screw Bush. It isn't about Bush. Bush isn't America and America isn't Bush. You don't like Bush, fine. It's certainly the popular fad right now.

Standing up for America and calling BS when hateful privileged ungrateful anti-Americans start spewing their crap and giving it a pass, day after day after week after week after month after month after month, all because he convinced you to support some loony candidate, isn't saving face. You're a better man than that, grim. You are better than them all. I just wished you could see it.

I miss the grim that had integrity and would actually debate with sources. The grim that would stand up for America. The grim that wouldn't give a pass to the daily anti-American rhetoric because it was the popular fad. Where did that grim go?

screen capture saved...

 

Ive read some of Grims older posts. The defo seemed more involved and legit back then. But for the longest time all the posts seem to be the same old same old spewed by every other uneducated person who watches the news.

There are 2 sides to everything and one interpretation is not always right. I see you debating the constitution and you refuse to give at all when thats the thing. The constitution is open to be interpreted. Some take a very literal meaning. And then some read into it to come up with the most ridiculous rights/freedoms that were never really meant to be there.

Grim, you and I have pretty much the same views on just about everything. There are a few defining points that puts us apart such as Iraq and national security but besides that we are both on the same boat.
The politics area here needs to be cleaned up. People need to stop harassing other members and need to stop calling others names. I know you did that to me just a while back over my opinions.

People here also need to stop jumping on personal issues and stick to the facts. As well they need to stop focusing their argument on petty typos or generalizations. There is a much bigger issue and I do nott understand why there is that need to waste everybodys time including your owns to drive every debate off topic with that junk.

I know you are a great debater. You have some good points. But I think you go about debating in the wrong way and I will admit I do to sometimes but mostly out of frustration when it is happening to me as well. Since you are one the most active debaters here if you helped clean things up some then I think the p and r would become much better then it ever has been

 

Of course there are 2 sides, I can totally understand this, I actually do enjoy where there are 2 sides.

Where I draw the line however is where I see fantasy and not facts.

For example some on this very forum are claiming WMD were found in Iraq on one particular basis, the yellow cake sent to Canada. Sorry but again they are totally wrong and this is why the president does not trumpet this discovery. It was not in fact 'discovered' it was known about, it was under lock/seal and allowed to exist in Iraq. Something known about, something Iraq was allowed to have hardly makes a WMD 'claim' become reality. In cases such as this it's nothing but a twist on the facts to make a case where one does not exist.

I will admit I can get extremely nasty, I can be a genuine prick, no questions there, I admit it and have no problem doing so.

When you see the same things claimed over and over though that are blatantly false and not simply something that can have a 2 'sides' or opinions such as the constitution 'in some cases' and or other things as what's better to end drug abuse with actual evidence to back it up it gets a bit tiring.

I have openly debated people on all sides, republican, democrat, libertarian and those who supported RP 'yet' I get accused by someone all the time of selling out simply for supporting RP? Now that takes the fng cake. I support a guy who I believe in 110% above the rest of the candidates out there, 'yet' I still call those who support him when I see BS. I've actually debated Nate more than a few times

Ahh yes I can be an ass, again I will admit that. I however do not go around following people and taunting them every chance I get, there are some of those on here that do that as well.

I will apologize to you right here and now and anyone else who has been offended by me, I however will in the future speak my mind.

I do agree with you here, there is a fine line as sometimes you can kind of tell where someone is going, however there is a lot of pure speculation that has nothing to do with the thread at hand, nor is there any real proof of the persons thoughts.

Such as me being anti Israel as I've been accused. I am nothing of the sort, I simply do not support either side over there. I get annoyed at both sides and personally wish they could simply give it a rest, build a wall if need be separating and agreed upon border and live in peace.

I wont say I am 'great' but I will admit I definitely speak my mind

 

I know what you mean about some people. I personally do not think Iraq had wmds but I think they defo had things planned and were looking into things. I support the war for more of a humanitarian reason along with some other issues as well.

I like Ron Paul. I would not mind voting for the guy. I am big with his economic policies and reducing government.
But I think he says some things (speaks his mind) that seems a bit radical for the time.

I actually would love to personally debate yo u. I know you have great points on arguments. Thats why I invited you over to the debating site.

Politics is heated so as I said I would like as well for you to help clean up the debating forum here.

 

During the correct time I 'might' have supported it as well

I'd love to have the government reduced myself, I also love his stance on the constitution.

Will try

 

That might be the saddest allegation I've yet read at this extremely sad forum.

 

Wow what is this I now read from the ignored Gtech.

I have 'influence' over the mods? That is news to me.

If any of your posts were removed I bet it would have something to do with breaking the forum rules.

Debating facts and being incapable? Oh give me a break Gtech, I simply am sick of you bringing up the same drivel that has been shown to be incorrect time and time again, you 'think' you're so smart, the problem is you're bottom barrel when it comes to debating, not the top of which you think you are. Why do you think even your own cronies no longer hang around you much anymore? hmmmm

Don't worry you're still on ignore like a good troll should be, I only see your posts when others quote them.

 

Gtech, although you rarely visit us anymore, I really enjoy reading your posts. A few weeks ago, one of your posts inspired me to create a blog about American politics. Would you mind if I put this post on my blog?

 

I was very surprised by it myself. One of the posts was in response to where grim blasted an Israeli for calling the leadership of Iran "monkeys" and eluded to him being a "hate filled bigot" for the post. Meanwhile, those in his circle of friends call the leadership of the USA ten times worse on a daily basis and never a peep. That post silently disappeared during the night, after I had left. The other was a little jab.

That's the way it goes around here now, I suppose. One hides behind moderators then comes forth to call me a troll when I attempted to engage him with positive discourse, even though he will not source or debate anything. Shame on me. I knew better that to raise my expectations, but still, I wanted to try.

No worries, I won't report his post or point out the hypocrisy of reporting others for a compliment, then turning around with a personal attack. I don't need to hide behind someone else. I can and will debate with sourced facts, not "already been debunked" and "everyone knows" with nothing to back it up.

Hi Rebecca,

I don't mind at all. Thanks for your kind words.

 

LOL.

This from someone who claims Iraq had WMD when Bush and the head of NSA denies it but as always Corporal potato knows best.