Iran willing to enrich uranium outside the region

I asked for a source because I knew you wouldn't provide one. I didn't expect you to actually follow through and I'm thankful you didn't. That would take effort.

I love Israel for the opposite reasons you hate them. Remember, I'm not a ron paul supporter, so I don't automatically attack/hate Israel over everything.

 

Sorry dude there were reasons why he dissolved parliament. If you did any unbiased reading at all instead of reading off links you will notice that operation ajax was in full effect. Operation ajax was an american and british government plot to overthrow mossadegh and grab control of iranian oil. mossadegh had full support of the common iranian masses and they took to the streets many times in support of him. Why do you think the iranian people felt so betrayed by our government for putting the shah into power? You are great at producing one liner answers but dont include the whole story. Did the iranian people ever threaten to over throw mossadegh? No!! Did they overthrow the shah? YESSSSSS


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh


Operation Ajax
In October 1952, Mossadegh declared that Britain was "an enemy", and cut all diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom. In November and December 1952, British intelligence officials suggested to American intelligence that the prime minister should be ousted. The new US administration under Dwight Eisenhower and the British government under Winston Churchill agreed to work together toward Mossadegh's removal. In March 1953, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles directed the US Central Intelligence Agency, which was headed by his younger brother Allen Dulles, to draft plans to overthrow Mossadegh.[14]

On April 4, 1953, CIA director Dulles approved US$1 million to be used "in any way that would bring about the fall of Mossadegh." Soon the CIA's Tehran station started to launch a propaganda campaign against Mossadegh. Finally, according to The New York Times, in early June, American and British intelligence officials met again, this time in Beirut, and put the finishing touches on the strategy. Soon afterward, according to his later published accounts, the chief of the CIA's Near East and Africa division, Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. arrived in Tehran to direct it.[citation needed]

The plot, known as Operation Ajax, centered around convincing Iran's monarch to use his constitutional authority to dismiss Mossadegh from office, as he had attempted some months earlier. But the Shah was uncooperative, and it would take much persuasion and many meetings to successfully execute the plan. Meanwhile, the CIA stepped up its operations. According to Dr. Donald N. Wilber, who was allegedly involved in the plot to remove Mossadegh from power, in early August, Iranian CIA operatives pretending to be socialists and nationalists threatened Muslim leaders with "savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh," thereby giving the impression that Mossadegh was cracking down on dissent, and stirring anti-Mossadegh sentiments within the religious community.[citation needed]

Mossadegh became aware of the plots against him and grew increasingly wary of conspirators acting within his government. He set up a national referendum to dissolve parliament in spite of the Constitutional provision which gave the Shah sole authority to dissolve Parliament. After taking the additional step of abolishing the Constitutional guarantee of a “secret ballot” Mossadegh’s victory in the national plebiscite was assured. The electorate was forced into a non-secret ballot and Mossadegh won 99.93% of the vote. Allegations that Mossadegh was resorting to dictatorial tactics to stay in power were in turn cited by the US- and British-supported opposition press as a reason to remove Mossadegh from power.[citation needed] Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mossadegh's emergency powers were extended.

Inside Iran, Mossadegh's popularity was eroding as promised reforms failed to materialize, and the economy continued to suffer due to heavy British sanctions. His policy of collective farming had been a disaster, which further increased his unpopularity with the Iranian public. The Tudeh Party abandoned its alliance with Mossadegh, as did the conservative clerical factions.

 

Gtech i want you to find me one iranian person that was against mossadegh and his policies. My guess is you will not find even one.
You see the people supported him for a reason, and your tiny little facts not supported by the whole truth dont stand up to well to critique.
Lets let the people here on dp read the whole facts and lets see what they say. As far as isreal , there are good politicians in that country as well as bad ones just like every other country on earth, with the best politician being Yitzak rabin(one of my heroes) who truely wanted peace even though arafat is a snake.
gtech me thinks your special interest group following wont like these 2 posts.


http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/



As leader of Iran, Mossadegh sponsored laws for " clean government" and independent court systems,
defended freedom of religion, political affiliations, and promoted free elections.
He implemented many social reforms and fought for the rights of women, workers,
and peasants. A fund to pay for rural development projects was created to benefit Iranian Farmers.
Most importantly, Mossadegh helped to foster a national self-sufficiency that remains
unduplicated in Iran since his tenure: blancing the budget,increasing non-oil productions and creating
a balance of trade. His policies were frequently opposed by the shah, army generals,
leading clerics, land lowners, the tudeh(communicst party), and the governments
of Britain and America. nevertheless Mossadegh could always rely upon the
support of the people.

 

Ping, I sourced the same document you did. I'm not sure why you would take issue with that, or perhaps you just didn't notice it. If you go back and look, it's the same source.

There are always reason why dictators dissolve their government illegally. Chavez is doing it now with Venezuela. That doesn't make it right, nor does it make a hero out of man.

Again, I couldn't even count on both hands, how many times you've blamed America for this. How many times will you blame America for something that you are not sure what would have been? Sounds like a personal grudge against America. When do we forgive and move on? Should Iran be allowed to nuke us or Israel because of some perceived grievance that happened fifty+ years ago. These are not unrational questions, are they?

What I find interesting is, the same people that present ahmadinejad on a pedestal as a beacon of admiration, also blame America for something that happened fifty+ years ago, that there is no way to know what would have been. Which is it? Are things great with ahmadinejad, and should we admire him for his hostility towards others, or do we speculate it could have been better, if...?

 

pingpong I see you're 'blaming America' first.

How dare you use facts, it's best we remain blind. It's better to be blind than learn from mistakes so we don't do them again, or god forbid possibly fix possible errors.

Don't you know you're supposed to only quote select parts of articles that benefit a false twisted history to make us smell like roses! How dare you! You terrorist supporting traitor!

'now for reality'

I myself like history, knowing the truth, be it good or bad for my agenda or the country I love. Some however fear the truth, I wonder why.

If someone trully loved this great country of ours, The United States of America. I think they would be willing to look at facts, see mistakes, admit to them so that we can fix them, and make sure the same mistakes are not carried out again. In order to do this of course one would have to actually love America and not simply be a false patriot

 

hehehe Grim , gtech is grasping at straws now. You see and most normal reasoning people see that mossadegh never resorted to this until he saw the threat from our government. Gtech will now sprout teh same lines that i always blame america for everything and he knows that he is incorrect. I never once blamed america for ww2 did I? My uncles served in that war and one of my uncles even had 3 purple hearts. he fought for our freedom. The freedom to speak the truth, the freedom to speak out against the unwarranted acquisition of power as good ole IKE talked about . Put yourself in mossadeghs shoes. You are the popularly elected president of iran who the iranian people love, and 2 major global governmental powers (britain and America) want you out because you refuse to let them control 51 % of your oil fields. What would you do? just bend over and let them take over your country or try to preserve your peoples freedom as a true pattriot is supposed to do. Mossadegh came from a farming family, was a farmer himself and gave his life in support of the common man.

This is a true hero, in comparison to a man who even dodged his obligatory army duties(draft dodger) and now send in our soldiers into iraq where they are dieing everyday. bush said he would never negotiate with terrorists?????????????? Do you notice that our official government stance towards iran in the last week has changed and now e are negotiating with them over iraqs security???????????

Take your hypocratic one liner facts, and go door to door to the families of our soldiers and explain this to them.
as i said before i would never blame america for everything as i know my country better than you ever could.
Im a true american who isnt afraid to stand up for his people(the american people). Now go huddle back to your special interest groups and get some more of your socalled facts.


Gtech for your homework assignment tonight i want u to go and interview all the iranian students you can find and ask them their opinions on doctor mossadegh. Maybe they will educate you a little. Grim, watch Gtech as he will totally ignore my request and come back with some more half fact one liner.

RON PAUL ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Tomorrow is Thanksgiving. Rather than sit around and self-loathe on behalf of my country (or lower my standards because I took the "populist" route) over the same issue several dozen times, I'll be enjoying Thanksgiving with my family and grateful I live in the greatest country in the world.

I have grim on ignore, but if you support ron paul and blame America first, he'll be there to back you up, so you're in good hands.

BTW, did you catch ron paul's radio interview today? I was trying to remember if any other presidential candidate has been on this particular show, let alone four times now.

Sometimes you feel like a ron paul....sometimes you don't

 

Not a higher standard. You're the squeaky wheel, you get the grease.

Blame America? Just posting facts to counter the "facts" you are posting.

Read that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

This is the guy we replaced him with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi#Corruption_and_Wealth

A pro-west authoritarian, and despot who stole from his country and was wholly corrupt. Of course, that was a foreign policy decision, and it created blowback by radicalization for the Ayatollah. Also known in Paul-speak as "unintended consequences".

I'm asking you to stop. I'm not blaming Americans, the Constitution or the army. I am blaming politicians with a globalist agenda, who think that mercantilism to benefit corporations in other countries puts everyday citizens at risk.

For the sake of clarity, you can amend your criticism to "Blame American Politicians first". I can live with that. Otherwise, you're simply painting me as a self-hater, which I am not. And I'm really starting to resent it.

Feel free to post all of that. We need a complete picture before we send more of our young people to fight in a war. We certainly needed a lot more discourse, information and clarity before going to Iraq.

I value life. American life, all life. Going to war under bad intel or lies or ulterior motives is something every American should be concerned about. It weakens our country.

Again, you're simply trying (and failing) to slander Paul for having a diverse base. You really need to understand the first amendment. Nuts are Americans, and their rights to be nuts are protected. When you start excluding people based on their beliefs, you close the door on freedom.

When the quakers came to America, they were religious outcasts in Europe. The "nuts" of their day, so to speak. But we know that had a valuable role in establishing the republic. In England, Catholics were the nuts and heretics in the 17th century. This country was created to allow people to believe whatever they want. It's anti-American to reject someone for having a niche or fringe opinion.

Let's not talk about groups who support Paul, because he leads the GOP field in donations from military sources. And that is an inconvenient truth against your arguments.

Then maybe you can understand the roots of anti-americanism in Iran. Doesn't make it right, but it is hypocritical to say they wear the devil's horns and we had no part in that.

You keep trying to portray me as hating America, but you're wrong. I think I may even love it more than you, because I see the rule of law subverted, the government corrupted and I want to put us back on the amazing path the Founders gave us. The first truly free (personally and economically) country in the history of mankind.

 

Paul supporters are going out and working in community kitchens, volunteering to feed the poor. Enjoy your thanksgiving and the blessings you have received in life.

Again, we're back to hating on Americans. Paul isn't afraid to go on Alex Jones. He's not afraid to get donations from Americans that some people may not approve of. He's not an appeaser or a panderer.

I know it doesn't suit your arguments, but Paul goes on a lot of radio shows. Check out http://www.ronpaulaudio.com. He was just on Brian and the Judge last week. He's been on the DailySourceCode Podcast. He's been on the IA Jan Mickelson show a few times. He only turns down interviews if they conflict with his schedule, he'll talk to anyone, anytime.

It's sad that you try to diminish him for being humble and approachable.

Btw, you're still on ignore, and since the NH primary was just announced, I fear that our time for jousting is short, because I'm way behind on the things I am working on to help the grassroots campaigning.

We'll see in the primaries.

 

I wish I could speak as eloquently as you guerilla

Many of you in fact

 

Grim i agree 100%,Guerilla thank god your posting here. You have exposed the thin layer of gtech's one liner rebbutals. WE love america more than you ever could gtech. A true patriot isnt afraid to look at the facts even if it points to his own politicians. Notice how when gtech is losing a debate he starts accusing someone of being anti-american.
wasnt this how our elitist military industrial complex started to blame mossadegh by accusing him of being a communist, even though his policies were in direct opposition to the soviet union and its beliefs?

No one has exposed gtech the way guerilla has done. I think we all know who the patriot is here

 

I disagree. If you want to hold me to a higher standard than others, I'm flattered. I have to presume that, or assume your biased observation when you call me out, while ignoring the comments others have made towards me. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, blame America. The only facts I've really focused on, are the ones to back up my assertion that he was not the "hero" some make him out to be. Dissolving parliament and one's Constitution does not make one a hero. It is speculation to assume what might have been.

Again, I reject the blame America first notion. You would have to know what would have happened in order to come to such a conclusion. It's speculation on your part.

You lose this point when you say things like "after we helped overthrow Mossadeqh in 1953." You are assigning blame to my (your?) country. I am part of this country, therefore you are including me in that blame that goes back some fifty plus years. I'd like to compliment you, some day, for saying something positive about America. I look forward to that day and promise not to belittle you for doing so. I can't speak for others though.

When your persistent criticism of our country starts including politicians, instead of literally blaming America first, I can surely accommodate your request. I resent people who ceaselessly attack our country. I'm as passionate about my country as you are about RP. With that in mind, surely you can see where I'm coming from.

We're not talking about going to war. I believe that's where some people get confused. They are so afraid of war and believe America deserves to be attacked, they blindly overlook real threats made by Iran's president, because they believe it is a prelude to war. I'm not advocating war here.

We (at least "I,") are not talking about going to war. We're not talking about the intel from the 90s, nor how many of today's democrats called for war with Iraq during the 90s. We're not talking about saddam's wmd, or the democrats and leaders around the world who believed he had them. We're not talking about the reports that some were moved to Syria, nor that some have been discovered or that some were looted.

I don't consider this a diverse base. Bush supporters are Americans too. No one is seeking to exclude them nor prohibit their freedoms. I simply point out who they are and find it very interesting that so many "haters" make up the core of RP's support. I'm not questioning their rights, I'm pointing out who they are. I do not have to like them, nor do I have to tolerate them. If that's who you want to associate with, more power to you. I choose differently. People should be aware of who they chose to associate with.

I disagree. I do not have to tolerate hateful and intolerant people. Any candidate that can amass such huge support from such small groups of haters should be asking why.

I've not seen any new reports on this. The last one I saw, actually had Obama with the most support. It doesn't disagree with my arguments though. There is no question that if you took away the "troofers," anti-semites, white supremacists, neonazies and other fringe "special interest" groups, RP's national 5% support would dwindle. He has about as much national support as there are people that make up these inexcusable groups of people.

I've always heard that most Iranians like America. Perhaps you wanted to paint a different picture?

I'd be happy if you were not ceaselessly criticizing it all the time. Though, to give you credit, you have backed off somewhat over the past month or two. It's not nearly as bad as it used to be. I figured it was because you were spending your time on updates about the campaign and didn't have enough time for the usual.

If you were as positive about America as you are about ron paul, I don't believe there would ever be any question.

That may or may not be true. It would be a good opportunity for them to "convert" those less fortunate, so it would not surprise me if they took advantage of a dual opportunity.

I didn't say Rp was afraid. In fact, that he's pandered to the alex jones crowd four times in a year, would surely indicate anything but being afraid. If anything, it simply perpetuates the conspiratorial loonacy about him and reaffirms such. I see it, that he's just talking with some of his core base. His hard core supporters. In that light, it makes perfect sense that he'd be back there, yet again.

I'm sure he's been on many shows. I've seen him on Fox several times and he says he loves Fox news. I can't help but think that drives his supporters nuts (uh, you know what I mean ) That he is seen as a "fringe" candidate, I simply have to ask, what other presidential candidates (republican or democrat) would even *think* about giving legitimacy to a nut like alex jones? Anyone? I see it as he is just touching base with some of his core supporters.

I've never mentioned, nor considered that he was humble and approachable.

No problem with me. Have a happy Thanksgiving (if you celebrate it) and try not to spend too much money on Friday

 

Ping, you're getting too caught up in the moment. I've put a great deal of time in cordial discussion here. I can accept that you don't like or agree with many things that I say. To suggest I'm offering "one liners" is simply not honest. I do understand your need to encourage guerilla though. He's doing a fine job. It's refreshing to be able to discuss some issues for a change, without all the hatred.

I've not accused anyone of being anti-American. I've not accused mossadegh of being a communist. You're better than this, ping. We can have open discussions without lying about what others say.

When people do blame America for something, as is being done by both you and guerilla here, it is not anti-America to point it out. As I've said several times, I cannot even count how many times you've blamed America for this very topic. It seems to be the mainstay of your discussions here. I'm not pulling that out of thin air.

What I have pointed out is, that mossadegh violated his country's parliament and constitution to gain power. I believe this is an inconvenient truth that you'd prefer to ignore, because it doesn't paint the rosy picture of him that you normally prefer.

Feel free to take issue with those things, if you like. When you use terms like "we overthrew him" you are blaming America first. There is no question about it. And you've done it many, many times here in the past. As if this is your one and only issue.

patriotism - devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

What's missing? Ceaselessly attacking one's country and persistently assigning blame to it for the world's problems. Perhaps I'm just not looking at the new and improved definition?

Someone who is a patriot, is passionate about their country, and seeks to love, support and defend it (even online) do not need to change the definition to suit their agenda.

There are many patriotic people here. I submit that a good number, may not necessarily be patriotic to their own country.

Ping, have a Happy Thanksgiving. I hope you have the opportunity to spend time with family and loved ones. Cheers!

 

Except that there is a concern that North Korea is helping Syria build a nuclear facility to build a nuclear bomb.

 

It's very hard to go forward, when one party won't acknowledge the past. The bad news is, we've made mistakes (see, I'm taking some responsibility, even for events before my birth), but the good news is, we still have the opportunity for change. To make things better.

Operation Ajax is from declassified documents. Just like the Bay of Tonkin was declassified. Unfortunately, the politicians have done some shady practices in the past. Thank god for the freedom of information act.

I'm happy you're not advocating war. War rarely settles anything, except territorial and economic disputes, and even then, at a tremendous cost in money and lives. Usually more innocent lives than the lives of soldiers.

Unfortunately, the executive branch has been beating the drum for war pretty aggressively the last 12 months. So yes, I am talking about going to war, because Generals are talking about the viability of going to war with Iran.

I agree with all of this, except when you talk about the core of RP's support. The "haters" as we'll call them are a small subset of Paul's supporters, and not his core. His core is the Libertarian party and the Goldwater Republicans. Has been for 30 years. It's how he's managed to have the third largest fundraising base in Congress since 1994.

It's old news now, but I know CNN, and MSNBC have reported it, as well as the Washington Post, AP and New York Times. But you could just go to the FEC site and look it up yourself. The numbers are all there, and I know you have a keen interest in the military.

I'll see if I can dig something up later (or maybe another Paulunteer will beat me to it).

As far as the 5%, I remember folks on here (who shall remain nameless) that he was not able to even achieve #s like that. You're incorrect about those #s being the fringe however. If you read the poll methodology, those are likely Republican voters, based on voting either last cycle, or the last two cycles. They are Bush Republicans.

There is a massive anti-american sentiment in Iran, particularly in the big cities. You can look it up, there is plenty of YouTube video of people chanting "Death to America" and burning stuff.

Ron Paul is a 10 term Congressman from Texas. He's making his second run for the Presidency. He has delivered 4,000 Americans into the world as an OB/GYN doctor. He served 5 years in the military. The Veterans of Foreign Wars have endorsed him in Congress. He was one of only 4 House Republicans to endorse Reagan. Barry Goldwater Jr. endorses him. John McCain called him the most honest man on Capital Hill. He put himself through medical school, he worked in charity hospitals. He doesn't take paid junkets, and he's refused the congressional pension. He put all of his kids through school without loans, and he chases down medals for veterans who have been lost in the system.

He was a high school track star, and a friend of Nolan Ryan. His brother is a preacher, and he is a devout Christian (prays backstage before rallies).

It doesn't get a whole lot more American than that.

That's pretty cynical and baseless.

He's been going on Alex Jones' program for 13 years. He's also been grilling the FED chief on economics going back before Greenspan, it's just that no one noticed before.

Here's the part where pandering to Alex Jones' base doesn't make a lot of sense. Jones it the 9/11 guy. Paul has said, he does not believe 9/11 was an inside job, repeatedly for the last month. I've posted yesterdays interview in the updates thread. Listen to it. Talking about economics, the growth of the campaign, and smear tactics in the media.

Napolitano endorses him. Paul's actually been the star candidate on the new Fox Business channel. They've had him on at least twice in the last month. He also goes over well on Kudlow & Friends, where he can find an audience who knows who Friederich Hayek is. It ain't easy being an intellectual, baby.

You should. While Huckabee talks a great game, has excellent presence, his past is a totally different story. Just ask the Club for Growth.

Paul is what he is, and he's damn humble. He actually had to be convinced to run, it was never his intention to do so.

As far as being approachable, he's notorious for staying after rallies meeting everyone, and signing anything, even after speaking for an hour after a day of travelling, and the crowd is over 1,000 in attendance.

Love that turkey and gravy. Gunna enjoy the football today.

 

The question is how long will Guerilla be able to keep his cool? I've been schooling Gtech since I came here 'starting with the Iraq war', problem is the more and more you engage him, especially when you prove him wrong, the more and more personal attacks from him come, the more lies and twists, the more he tries to falsely accuse you of saying stuff you did not. One can only take so much, it's pretty obvious it's his last line of arguing, when all else fails change the topic.

I hope guerilla can keep Gtech on the actual facts, actual debate, not twisting and turning, using false information, claiming to not see links when posted, demanding links himself but calling you lazy when you ask for one in return.

--I can admit I am way too short tempered to put up with crap, the stuff Gtech posts over and over. Accusing me of shit I never said, lying and twisting is simply something I can not/will not stand for.

I wish him the best of luck

 

I hope this as well Grim. Looks like you have been doing good in that area also. Our purpose here is the search for truth. I feel so sorry for people like him that feel no remorse for twisting the truth. Im sure gtech will find some government posts like the one he gave me about us finding wmd's but they were transferred to syria loooooooooooooooool. Government facts with no proof mean what???? Exactly.
Keep up the good you grim and guerilla, you have the truth on your side.

 

It's guerillas job, he can have it

Yeah WMD reports, they try anything and everything to try to prove points. All of them are either baseless or can easily be explained. Such as certain items were known about being in Iraq, they were under seal by the UN weapons inspection teams. Yet they try to use those items to prove the WMD's existed.

To be fair though, I expected we would find at least 'some' form of WMD not known about/allowed. I was incorrect there myself. I just doubted the huge stockpiles, imminent threat, etc

Trust me, for our own sake, credibility around the world I wish we found WMD's. Hell I myself was proven wrong since we didn't find any, I would very much like to see some found. Only problem is, they have not been found, only lame attempts to try to point to them, nothing of substance.

 

Grim, after reading colonel fletcher prouty's The Secret Team, my eyes opened up. Here was a career military man, black ops guy, banker who served his country honerably for most of his life who opened up his eyes after jfk and the gulf of tonkin incident sparking off the true american heavy involvement in vietnam. prouty kept going back in his book to Eisnenhower's cryptic warning to the american people about the growing power of the military industrial complex. Prouty even admitted our involvment in operation Ajax to bring down mossadegh of iran.

the moment that truely shocked me the most was during the republican debate when Ron Paul was the only guy that brought up our involvement in iran back then, and it blew my mind. That was when he truely won me over. If he ever gets elected he wont last long because a man with a good heart,knowledge and belief in speaking the truth is a dangerous threat to the current establishment. I admire his stance on issues and more importantly his guts.