I'd agree here. And my counterpoint would be that if you do not mind illegal immigration, then you should advocate dismantling those programs before continuing the push to legalize those immigrants. Much like legalizing drugs. Wanna legalize it, great. First; let's dismantle any program that'd make me have to pay for your lifestyle through social programs.
What an odd statement. Did you forget what we were talking about? Can you point out anywhere in anyones post where either of those points was made? Was that an attempt to construct a straw-man argument? My statement was about immigrants, not about any specific group of immigrants based upon race, religion, creed, or legal standing. For your review: You then attempted to replace my objective term with a pejorative -- for purely propaganda reasons: If immigrants to this great nation can take the time and effort to learn English, then we as naturally born citizens have no less of an obligation.
Not at all. You said that the term illegal alien was a pejorative. I would like you to explain what language should be used in lieu of this pejorative to describe their status, and differentiate them from a legal alien. That's funny, because bogart specifically posted "illegal aliens", and you replied talking about immigrants. Seems to me that you replaced his language in this discussion first. http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=5603915&postcount=73 You then went further at the end of that post, to translate illegal alien again to "immigrant", but now translating resident aliens and citizens into "welfare junkies" So before you lecture me on shifting language, and use of pejoratives, perhaps you should clean up your own house. Btw, I'll be waiting for your non-pejorative term to distinguish between a legal alien and an illegal one. I'm sure you'll be creative.
Bogarts point was about illegal aliens. Mine was about immigrants. If I make a post about hot crossed buns, should I use the term "cinnamon roles?" If it's your point, it's your responsibility to make it. This isn't a welfare state, do your own work. Personally, the only difference to me is a bunch of stupid laws put together by ignorant people who have failed to grasp even the most basic laws of economics and were instead convinced by Marxist rhetoric that the economy was of a fixed size and that every dollar that an immigrant made was stolen from the table of a registered voter. That says little about the immigrants and more about the laws which make their actions illegal.
You clearly rebranded the discussion. Then you accused me of using illegal aliens as a pejorative. On the contrary, you labeled the term pejorative, and I'm willing to accept your subjective opinion on the language used, but then I feel it is somewhat incumbent upon you to define whether or not you feel there is any linguistic distinction between an immigrant who follows the process of immigration legally, and one who does not. It's a very simple question. What do you call someone who has landed in a country without following the legal process? If you're not willing to offer an alternative, "Will.Spencer speak" then I think you will have to abandon the tact that the language I used was pejorative. We're really not that far apart on this issue, it's just that you choose to address it through ideology, and I through a philosophy. Until you fix the welfare state (which will involve destroying the warfare state) you can't address immigration, legal or illegal in a manner which does not tax the citizens' liberty or prosperity.
You GO, Mr. Spenser! Well spoke indeed! Can you say "e n t r a p m e n t ?" American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This en·trap (Ä›n-trÄp') Pronunciation Key tr.v. en·trapped, en·trap·ping, en·traps 1. To catch in or as if in a trap. 2. To lure into danger, difficulty, or a compromising situation. See Synonyms at catch. 3. To lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act. Now, can you say "a c c o m p l i c e?" American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This ac·com·plice (É™-kÅm'plÄs) Pronunciation Key n. An associate in wrongdoing, especially one who aids or abets another in a criminal act, either as a principal or an accessory. When will we all, as Americans, accept our share in this alledged "criminal act?" We invited these folks here, and have been for over a hundred years, to do our dirty work for us. Now we want to bang the drum and tell them to go poop in their sombreros. How small minded of us, how hypicritical. All this while our politicians appeal to the lowest possible denominator of our nationalistic pride and fears. I promise you, if you live long enough you shall feel shame. One day this great nation will hang it's head in shame over this.
Governments in everyones pocketbock. Congress loves a good bailout. Right now we have the housing bailout to help big banks and people trying to make a quick buck on the housing boom -- the price tag, half-a-billion bucks and growing with taxpayers footing the bill. Coming soon the 2008 Country Wide Financial Bailout and 2009 Illegal Alien Bailout ? Some Federal bailouts and giveaways to big business are: 1980 Chrysler bailout sold to Germany's Daimler-Benz 1989 $300 billion S&L Banking Bailout 1998 rescue of giant hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management and bailouts of under-funded corporate pension plans by the government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation 2001 100 billion federal airline bailout 2005 Katrina Bailout $200 Billion
Dude no offense, you are against out sourcing, I understand. But may be if you work a little on your English, specially spelling and grammar, you'd get a job... perhaps?
You're way out there. Anyone who has been here for over a generation is an American. I don't like birthright citizenship as a reward for breaking our laws, but it is what it is. You're trying to appeal to a shame that doesn't exist. Lots of people come here legally, learn English, become citizens and Americans. Those that come here illegally, then work illegally undermine Americans and immigrants who follow the process.
You speak of history but are obviously no student of it. One need only look to the middle east and watch the Palestinians line up on a morning to go cross over into Israel, a country they hate, to find work. Waves do not leap-frog. And the waves from South of the border are doing what is natural, trending historically and understandable. There is no real secret here. We've employed them, we pay them, they keep coming. But now there are, conservatively, 12 million of them. This is our doing as a country, we've allowed this. It's like a smoker who after thirty years of cigarettes suddenly realizes he does have cancer and now wants to sue Marlboro. We knew what was going on all along. No I am not talking of the "legal" aliens you refer to, such as the doctors of India whose education we funded, who go back to India and work till their legal visas come through, and then return LEGALLY with their entire families, wealth and language and have absolutely no need, as did our grandfathers, to assimilate. Yes, even less need than your bugaboo "illegals." One need only look to Jersey City to see what I am talking about. The language on the stores is unreadable, the brownstowns unattainable by the generation of blue-collar workers who lived and died there. These Indians did not come here to mow your lawns, they came back with MONEY and have done more to change the wholesale cultures of longstanding neighborhoods than any "illegal" alien from south of the border ever did. Pretty much "illegals" stick to their barrios, their traditional barrios, and those neighborhoods which you would not care to live in. You are falling for the big lie. The Politicians have turned your head from their ineptitude, veracity and greed. They are waving a flag in front of your face, a flag and a cross, hoping you're just dumb enough to let them evade the real issues facing us in this Great Country. Ask yourself: What Would McCarthy Do?
Weak dollar adds twist to 'Made in America' The United States is the new hot spot for global companies looking for cheap labor "Most of [European] companies are based in the Southern U.S. because it's quite a low-cost location," said Gane of PricewaterhouseCoopers. "Wages there are not far off from what's being paid in Mexican border towns, where it's becoming harder to recruit workers." http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WeakDollarAddsTwistToMadeInUSA.aspx?page=1
Please stop talking to me like this. It's childish. This has nothing to do with nationalism for me. The flag and the cross imagery are misplaced. You probably believe I hate immigrants. I do not. I hate what the government has done, and it has to change, but in the meanwhile, whole communities are losing their social services, as people stream across the border, and take part in the welfare state. The people subsidizing this cheap labor are the citizens, and I'll be damned if you're going to blame a citizen for speaking up about it.
The government is subsidizing cheap labor for the rich. There is no way a guy working in a car wash or factory with $200 a week take home can pay $1000 a month rent, pay health care and support six children. The government supports all of this with section 8, welfare, food stamps, kid care insurance, free public schools and free interent connection. Let's say you go down to Cali and meet a hot tamale on http://www.calisbest.com and bring her back the US. You should be supporting her. This is a little off subject. But there are some hot girls in Cali and a B&B is $40 a night. I think you get a better deal for the dollar. The same thing is true for employers of illegal aliens. They should be paying the social cost not the taxpayer.
Which is the whole premise behind a "sane" guest worker program. People love to speak of services "stolen" by illegals, when in fact a sane guest worker program would take a percentage of their pay checks to go towards these very things. And, guerilla, until folks like yourself who should know better stop talking like flag waving mobs I do not know how else to speak to you except with the truth, You are falling for the Big Lie. It is not the illegal alien who would steal away your Social Security check. But governmental ineptitude and a 250 million dollar a day war with no end.
I don't agree with this at all. Ask your grand parents why they only spoke English, not some other Native Indian's Language. Ask them why they failed to adapt to their American way of life and start living like them. Any humans, animals take the shortest path to life. Occam Razor. Maybe one day, America will be speaking Spanish, which I don't mind.
Don't talk down to me. You obviously don't have a clue about my position or perspective. When my grandparents came here, they couldn't speak English. And the Indian Wars were long over. I'm not going to recriminate them for showing up at the wrong time to look good to today's bleeding heart liberals. I wouldn't have a problem with that if it was a natural evolution.
The only tax the day laborers pay is a few dollars tax on the corona they are drinking. Employers get cheap labor and the taxpayers subsidize it with public services.
Bogart, you are flat out wrong. Most "illegal" workers work under false social security cards. Their taxes are taken out of their paychecks before they receive them. You are falling for the Big Lie. Illegal aliens have probably done more to save Social Security than the last five administrations combined. They just won't be able to benefit from them, which for me, is just tough shit for them. But that's the deal, they recognize this and still are willing to work. ... they just work for spit. 15 years ago I was in management at a Home Depot. Every morning the "illegals" would line up outside to work for their sweat and spit. That's when the cops came out - to harrass them, and, truth be said - do their jobs - I had no problem with either side. But later that same day, starting around midnight, the drug dealers would come out en force, plying their wares. guess what - you couldn't buy a cop then - oh, crack, meth, weed, needles... you name it... they were for sale, but a cop? Nowhere in sight. STOP BUYING INTO THE LIE.
If they are getting paychecks, and paying taxes, then they are making minimum wage. How is this different from the thousands of Americans who work at Walmart? They get free healthcare, free education and birthright citizenship. They choose to come here, last I checked, we weren't sending fleets of transport buses to kidnap people across the border to work at Home Depot.