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I'm right, you're wrong, Google!

Discussion in 'Guidelines / Compliance' started by Malachim, Dec 17, 2005.

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What do you think of the AAA inaccessible Google code

  1. Sorry, haven't got a clue what you are on about

    14 vote(s)
    31.1%
  2. Couldn't care less as long as it earns revenue

    15 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. It would be better for all if they'd fix this

    16 vote(s)
    35.6%
  1. #1
    I am probably risking my account, but I'm ruddy sick of Google refusing to back down over their crappy code. If I do lose my account over this they had better believe they'll have a fight on their hands! :mad:


    Here's what I just posted to them, with copied blasted all over the place:

    -------------------------------

    Copies:
    * US Goverment, United States Access Board, A Federal Agency Committed to Accessible Design
    * US Government, Section 508
    * W3 WAI
    * International Center for Disability Resources on the Internet
    * U.S. Department of Justine: Americans with Disabilities Act
    * Press and Adsense UK at Google


    Hi Colm,

    Thanks for your clarification

    In reply to this line of your reply:

    " To uphold the quality and reputation of Google AdSense "

    Actually the quality of your default Adsense code is amateurish and considering your standing, frankly disgracefully.
    Similarly, amongst usability and accessibility circles, your reputation is in tatters!

    Importantly, as IBM found out to their cost some folk actually taking accessibility laws seriously as they are one prominent company that fell foul of accessibily laws:

    Google for 'IBM sued accessibility' and you'll find entries like this: http://www.tomw.net.au/2001/bat2001.html ]

    Basically, in issuing this sub-standard code you - and anyone that uses it - are liable under US 508 regulations (etc) regarding access for the disabled.


    See also
    http://www.section508.gov

    http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm

    http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/508/508law.html

    http://www.ada.gov/

    http://www.icdri.org/CynthiaW/is_ yoursite_ada_compliant.htm

    http://usability.gov/accessibility/


    Well, I'm sure your lawyers can look it up, eh!

    Please note that this applies equally to other default codes - code of which cannot be corrected by end users. For instant, both the Adsense and Firefox referral banners both fail to provide even a basic "alt tag".

    Basically, any indivual or company that wants to include your banners etc but wants or needs to keep their web site legal and valid under US508 or WAI A, WAI AA, or WAI AAA has only three options:


    1. Not use you.

    2. Correct the faults, thus violating your T&C at the cost of Adsense account

    3. Consider a class action against you as your T&C's force end users to use invalid code, even illegal code
    SEMrush

    Anyway, here's two annotated pages for you to consider.
    The first uses default Google SiteSearch table.
    The second** uses a modified form, replacing the table with a div and a valid form

    [ test page using thir default form ]

    [ test page using a form in a WAI AAA accessible div ]


    ** This includes pre-populating the box with a generic term 'your terms' as, again, failure to include an entry for the search box, i.e. [ value="some entry" ] violates accessibily rules.

    NOTE:
    These pages are live for demonstration purposes only and will be deleted after your reply.

    Personally - and I ask that you can pass this on to your management and senior directors - I find it both disgusting and morally reprehensible that a company of your size and stature can be so arrogant as to force invalid and in cases (I believe) illegal code, upon countless millions of publishers effectively under the ruling:

    "Do as we say or we'll close your account, forever!"


    Equally damning, I find, is that fact you can't even make your home page [www.google.com] accessible beyond passing US508. For WAI testing it fails miserably.

    To paraphrase Grandpa Simpson: "For shame, Google"

    At the end of up, I'm embarrassed to sum up, "I'm right, you're wrong", because I am right - and you know it - and I'm really not happy that you are forcing me to use such poor code because in your arrogance you seem to believe:

    "We're right, you're wrong, because if you don't follow our rules to the letter we'll close your account. We don't care, there's always others to take your place".

    If you and your company can give me one single reason why you can't offer publishers a selection of 'WAI AAA' and US508 valid code for search boxes, banners etc, I will go away humbled.

    Come on, I'm one disabled man, typing away at home, you are a multi-national corporation... I can duplicate a completely valid and accessible search box in every single size and shape of format you offer for Adsense for Content... Give me one reason you can't with all the PhD's you have working for you !

    Shame on the lot of you!

    Regard,


    Paul Ackerley
     
    Malachim, Dec 17, 2005 IP
    Will.Spencer likes this.
    SEMrush
  2. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #2
    And the point of all this babbling is....... ?
     
    fryman, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  3. LaCabra

    LaCabra Goats R Us

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    #3
    The point is he wants a little flexibility with the code! Which makes sense!
     
    LaCabra, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  4. Malachim

    Malachim Peon

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    #4
    The point is I try to built all my sites with WAI AAA class - and Google SiteSearch table can't even pass US508.

    If you want to be prissy about it, with an accessible layout it is far easier to blend the search to your site, with a probable CTR of 20% or better

    Monetize that reason!
     
    Malachim, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  5. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #5
    Yeah... make so much sense... I guess that's why this is the first time in my life that I have ever heard of someone wasting Google's time complaining about their code

    Must be the sort of guy that goes to the movies and complains 50 times to the manager because the sound is too loud... the lights are too bright... the air conditioner is too cold... the popcorn is too salty...
     
    fryman, Dec 17, 2005 IP
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  6. tesla

    tesla Notable Member

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    #6
    Don't be so brutal fryman. Some people are simply more stringent than others when it comes to certain things. :)
     
    tesla, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  7. Shoemoney

    Shoemoney $

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    #7
    Wow I am suprised google hasnt made this there top priority...
     
    Shoemoney, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  8. Malachim

    Malachim Peon

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    #8
    For obvious reasons I can't give the details, but for the short time between testing my the valid code - and getting a response from Google that it I should remove it, the CTR increased 14%

    Addenda:
    Visually it looked almost identical
     
    Malachim, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  9. Crazy_Rob

    Crazy_Rob I seen't it!

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    #9
    Is Google now forcing people to use their Adsense program?

    I guess that explains why Adsense is on about 90% of all of the websites I see. :D :D
     
    Crazy_Rob, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  10. mcfox

    mcfox Wind Maker

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    #10
    Malachim, could you please sum this up in a sentence or two for those of us with the attention span of a fly?

    What is it you want from Google?
     
    mcfox, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  11. billabong

    billabong Peon

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    #11
    Hey Man,
    I completely agree with you on this one. Google must have the power to simply ensure that their code is accesible. Accessibility has started to become overlooked and I am completely against this. If people can code to take into consideration visitors Browser and resolution, surely its not asking too much to make it accessible for those with various disabilities.
    Have you had a response from Google yet. I should imagine they'll get back to you next year sometime. Hope you get this resolved,
    Craig
     
    billabong, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  12. Malachim

    Malachim Peon

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    #12
    !

    I want them to generate valid code!


    Valid, accessible code is a legal requirement in come instances, it's the right thing to do and, equally so, it can improves your SEO.

    Here's a list of errors their table tosses up:



    [ WebXact Watchfire ]
    Priority 2 and 3 failures flagged, as mentioned above.
    Missing height and width of the Google logo also flagged as poor page quality.


    [ HiSoftware ACC monitor site test ]

    Failed for accessibility. Flags include:

    Failure - All INPUT elements are required to contain the alt attribute or use a LABEL.

    Failure - Rule: 12.4.1 - Identify all non-hidden INPUT elements that do not have an explicit LABEL association.

    Failure - Document uses one or more deprecated elements or attributes. The document contains the element: table with the deprecated attribute: bgcolor


    <form method="get" action="http://www.google.com/custom" target="_top">
    <input type="radio" name="sitesearch" value="www.wwwxbox360.co.uk"> [80] The following attributes may not be used with the "form" element in an XHTML 1.1 document: "name" and "target".


    The "input" tag does not have an "id" attribute which must be used to explicitly associate this control with a "label" element. When electronic forms are designed to be completed online, the form shall allow people using assistive technology to access the information, field elements, and functionality required for completion and submission of the form, including all directions and cues [Section 1194.22 (n)]. Information attached to controls via the "label" element can be very useful to users of talking browsers. Note that "id" and "for" values are case sensitive. Visit http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#forms-labels for more information.


    <table border="0" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    [80] The following attributes may not be used with the "table" element in an XHTML 1.1 document: "align", "bgcolor", "bordercolor", "bordercolorlight", "bordercolordark", "height", "hspace", and "vspace". Instead of the "bgcolor" attribute, consider using the CSS "background-color" property instead.


    <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" align="left" height="32">
    [80] The following attributes may not be used with the "td" element in an XHTML 1.1 document: "background", "bgcolor", "bordercolor", "bordercolorlight", "bordercolordark", "height", "nowrap", and "width".


    <img src="http://www.google.com/logos/Logo_25wht.gif" border="0" alt="Google" align="middle">
    [80] The following attributes may not be used with the "img" element in an XHTML 1.1 document: "align", "border", and "name". Instead of the "border" attribute, consider using the "border" CSS property. Example: style="border: 1px solid".


    <font size="-1" color="#000000">Web</font>
    [74] The "font" element should not be used in an XHTML 1.1 document. Style sheets should be used instead of this element. Note that you may want to consider using a different DOCTYPE declaration that is more lenient and allows more element, such as an HTML 4.01 transitional DOCTYPE. For example, you may want to use the HTML 4.01 transitional DOCTYPE: <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">. If you are using HTML Validator's integrated editor, then you can add this from the Tags menu and/or from the Tag Inserter.

    .

    To get a better idea of what I'm getting at, try running your page(s) through any of these free, online validators - bearing in mind the top two are use by all the top companies, including the likes of Microsoft...

    http://www.hisoftware.com/accmonitorsitetest/

    The above will will test your SEO too :)

    http://webxact.watchfire.com/

    http://online.htmlvalidator.com/php/onlinevallite.php
     
    Malachim, Dec 17, 2005 IP
    Colleen likes this.
  13. aeiouy

    aeiouy Peon

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    #13
    I am suprised google didn't shove code US5302-8A up your backside and ban you.

    By the way "valid" code is not a legal requirement in any instance. You are talking nonsense.

    As others suggested you are free not to use google adsense.
     
    aeiouy, Dec 17, 2005 IP
  14. Crazy_Zap

    Crazy_Zap Well-Known Member

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    #14
    Would you suggest that people who spend their lives in a wheelchair are free to never leave their home, rather than make public transportation accessible? How about some flexibility here? Sensitivity to the plight of others is a good thing.
     
    Crazy_Zap, Dec 18, 2005 IP
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  15. millst2

    millst2 Guest

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    #15
    simple solution would be one of 2 things...

    drop adsense and use another ad provider.. or

    since your so determined to make a website for the disabled publisher.. use your desire and motivational aspects of all things Just ,, and start a ad publishing company for the disabled by the disabled.. I mean you may sound like you have a real small niche in which you may be able to enter into.
     
    millst2, Dec 18, 2005 IP
  16. jbw

    jbw Peon

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    #16
    I personally agree google should improve thier code. Qouting section 508 and lawsuits seems in poor taste and a bad method for accomplishing this. Section 508 only applies to government paid for web sites right? The solution is not to put ad sense on those sites.

    If you really needed to put adsense on this type of site that is government funded anyway, could a case not be made that the ads are not part of the information and thus not subject to 508?
     
    jbw, Dec 18, 2005 IP
  17. lorien1973

    lorien1973 Notable Member

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    #17
    you're comparing wheelchair access and placing advertising? Sounds fair :rolleyes:
     
    lorien1973, Dec 18, 2005 IP
  18. jbw

    jbw Peon

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    #18

    Next I am sure it will really be for the children.
     
    jbw, Dec 18, 2005 IP
  19. mcfox

    mcfox Wind Maker

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    #19
    Malachim, underneath all of the bluster about accessibility laws I feel you have a valid point. I just don't think you are presenting it in the best way. Typically, and I'm sure you know this since you've been around the computer-block for a while; when someone goes on the attack as it were, and starts blasting away on forums or in emails, their message gets drowned out by the sound of the gunfire.

    Google have been very strict about how Adsense is presented (i.e. coded) since its inception and for good reason -- if any flexibility was built in to allow for resizing and the like, it would instantly be abused across thousands, if not millions of sites. There may be ways that Google could come up with that will allow for accessibility functions to be incorporated but it isn't going to happen overnight; not with the potential for exploitation that exists at the moment.

    I do see Google testing bigger text on Adsense just now, so aside from obviously trying to attract more clicks, it could also be a step towards accessibility.
     
    mcfox, Dec 18, 2005 IP
  20. Malachim

    Malachim Peon

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    #20
    Some of you are perfectly correct, I - we don't have to use Adsense. I made that choice with Amazon over their horrid code years ago. However, Amazon at least would let you fix it. Google give you one choice - their way or the highway! And none of us want to lose our Adsense accounts, me included.

    I think a number of you are missing the big picture - and some truly are showing your complete and utter ignorance both of my point and - more importantly - lack an understanding of the rights, needs and feelings of the "disabled". For that matter, some of you haven't clearly either don't know or don't care about good web design.

    Here's a 101 for the ignorant amongst you - and the insensitive.

    Width and Height. This relates to preformatting the delivered page. Sure, it's not so important while an increasing number of us have broadband, but for those using dialup, and those surfing on their mobiles... It all adds up.

    A lot of my contention does relate to my correct, if pedantic adherance to good coding. However:

    Here's a picture [ ]. Tell me what you see.
    Here's a link [ link ]. Tell me where it goes. Click on it, go on, you know it's safe...

    That's about where you are as a blind person looking at an inaccessible page. Without an 'alt' tag and ideally a 'title' they 'see' nothing.

    Before some of you show yourselves up again, yes, an awful lot of blind people do surf the Internet using Braille readers and speech synthesizers like Jaws.
    [ http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Browsing ]

    I know a few of you - like AEIOUY - are so pathetic that you'll gloat if I lose my Adsense account for standing up for what I know is the right thing to do, but what the hey.

    At the end of the day, you - and Google - know I'm right. I'm trying to make the world a better place in my own little way and if I get my head blown off for sticking it above the trenches, so be it - at least I'll die trying, so to speak.
     
    Malachim, Dec 19, 2005 IP
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