IE8 Passes Tests

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by worldman, Dec 30, 2007.

  1. usasportstraining

    usasportstraining Notable Member

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    #81
    Now I'm just worried about Firefox not passing. It would be nice if they both saw the page the same way for once.
     
    usasportstraining, Mar 21, 2008 IP
  2. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #82
    So far, IE8 has regressed. PPK has shown that some CSS properties that worked in IE7, no longer work in IE8. While IE8 passed the Acid2 test inhouse and with a modification of the test, it may not pass the online test now (forgot to check before uninstalling it), but I read somewhere that it won't once released.

    In any case, the Acid2 test is no indicator of how well any browser does with web standards overall. The perfect example of this is IE8 beta. It passed Acid2 but breaks some web pages and, as noted above, actually fails in areas it passed before.

    So, while passing Acid2 is a good thing, it is not to be taken as a pass/fail indicator.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 21, 2008 IP
    usasportstraining likes this.
  3. worldman

    worldman Notable Member

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    #83
    Any web browser can break the CSS of a website. I have a personal page on myspace and someone so happened to leave a long password. The layout for the site (which is Flash) has a very good CSS code which would bring it in line. Firefox Screwed the CSS and extended the page how many pixels across the page. Opera did the same. IE7 is the only browser that showed the page correctly.

    So any web browser can occasionally destroy the CSS of a website.
     
    worldman, Mar 21, 2008 IP
  4. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #84
    Now let's think about that. The only browser that displays your page as you wish is IE7. Yet Firefox and Opera don't. What does this tell us? Why can't any other browser display your page corretly?

    The reason (despite myspace being a coding nightmare) is that Firefox and Opera are two of the most modern, standards compliant browsers available. If you used IE7 to test your site first, you are using a browser that is 10 years behind web standards. This is a known fact that is provable and verifiable. Even Microsoft admits to this on their IEBlog. There are hundreds of web sites dedicated to this very subject, the bugs and hacking of IE to fix it. Yet there are none for any other browser.

    Never, ever use any version of IE to initially test a web design. Always, always use a modern browser such as Opera, Firefox or Safari. Then you can adjust for IEs quirks and bugs as the bugs and hacks are known as are the fixes. Never, ever trust IE to display correct, properly written markup.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 21, 2008 IP
  5. angilina

    angilina Notable Member

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    #85
    Good news for Microsoft :)
     
    angilina, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  6. worldman

    worldman Notable Member

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    #86
    Opera and FF displays the site. The CSS is messed up though. Now lets get into a little details. When you are the leader of the Web Browser world you can do what you like. The day FF becomes the leader is the day it will pay less attention to the WC3. Google has claimed to be for the people since the day it came around. We Webmasters know that is changing since they have controlled the Search Engine Market.
     
    worldman, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  7. kingofsanda

    kingofsanda Peon

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    #87
    That's great news but I will continue to use firefox.
     
    kingofsanda, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  8. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #88
    Then you coded it wrong. The web developer's mantra: "If it works in IE, but not Firefox/Opera/Safari, then my markup is wrong."
    As IE slowly loses market share while Firefox increases to the point when they now have up to 1 out of every two users in Europe, some Asian countries, and Australia. Microsoft acknowledges this. Why else do you think they are trying to improve their browser?
    It's the W3C. Firefox is a member of the W3C. Will they start ignoring themselves? They help write the specs. btw, Microsoft is a member of the W3C, too, and chairs the new HTML5 group. Do you still believe Microsoft is ignoring the W3C?
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  9. worldman

    worldman Notable Member

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    #89
    First of all. The motto of the webmaster is to "make my site compatible on all browsers". When you have webmasters who are so mad at Microsoft that they do not make their sites compatible with the IE it shows how little they know about web standards.

    Secondly Microsoft's IE is not loosing share at some astounding pace. FF has held 16-17% of the market share for the past 2 or three years. The vast majority of people who surf the web are concerned about viewing a site securely. Currently IE offers all of that and the only persons who are switching to FF are those who want a bunch more add ons and of course all the Microsoft haters.

    Hey Netscape ignored the W3C for years until Microsoft put them out of business. Secondly Microsoft and Firefox will always have wars because Microsoft carries clout and even the W3C as powerful as they are still have disputes with them. If Microsoft was not ignoring the the W3C they would have made IE5 and 6 ten times better. Only now are they slowly turning around.
     
    worldman, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  10. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #90
    No one said not to make a site work in IE. The point is to write valid markup. The best way to test valid markup is using the most standards compliant test bed available. Currently, that is Firefox/Opera/Safari. Once you know your markup is correct, then you can debug. Nothing is more difficult to do than trying to debug buggy code.

    I specifically said it was slowly losing market share. Just three years ago, IE usage was around 95%. Your 16-17% number for FF shows IE, at best, is now 83% (not including other browsers). But those are US numbers. ArsTechnica and Xiti show average usage in Europe between 23-51% Firefox usage. Around the same in Australia and some Asian countries. So, if you are selling to or in those markets, FF users can be up to half your customers.
    Of course, and Secunia shows there are three times more vulnerabilities in IE than any other known browser.

    Where do you get this information from? Please post your data.
    If you use HTML, you are not ignoring the W3C. As I said, Microsoft is a member of the W3C and chairs the new HTML5 committee. Are you saying Microsoft is ignoring itself?
    Microsoft was ignoring non-Microsoft developers. Anything that wasn't developed for Office apps was not considered. Remember when Bill Gates said they didn't care about the internet a number of years ago? Now they are trying to catch up with everyone else. Maybe it's too late and the tipping point has been reached.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 22, 2008 IP
  11. Stroh

    Stroh Notable Member

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    #91
    Great to hear Microsoft catching up. BTW I use IE7 and FF together... Certain things work better in IE than FF and vice versa. It all depends. If I want to see stuff glow, I'll use IE. If I don't care where I am, I'll use FF.
     
    Stroh, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  12. worldman

    worldman Notable Member

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    #92
    If Netscape paid attention to the W3C they would have made their browser able to run clean codes without "crutches". Same thing goes for Microsoft. Its foolish to believe Microsoft is not listening to the W3C when IE7 their latest browser still uses "crutches" to display CSS and HTML properly.

    Now for your report on the current share of IE7. Take a look at this article.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer
     
    worldman, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  13. StormForum

    StormForum Well-Known Member

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    #93
    Good point, but Microsoft's main inception for not listening to the W3C is because it seems that Microsoft is basing Internet Explorer more on older Websites that aren't within today's HTML standards, and so this maybe one reason Microsoft aren't listening to W3C, which is quite a valid point. But in a different scale, if everyone complied to W3C then there wouldn't be as many issues in regards to differentiation between browsers, and many Web developers wouldn't need to code in slightly different manners to make it render correctly in every popular browser out there. But then again, if that was the scenario, it would be quite boring - and probably one browser would dominate the whole market, so there wouldn't be a variety to choose from. In terms of security, Firefox with the NoScript add-on is probably the best option, but again, IE7 has vastly improved, and even I use it without rendering issues of quite popular sites that even are W3C compliant. It's great that IE8 is passing acid2 tests, etc - but if they were the same as other browsers, there wouldn't be such a thing as competition in the market.
     
    StormForum, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  14. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #94
    Glow is not a standard web property.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  15. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #95
    Netscape did not lose because they didn't listen. Netscape lost, at least partially, due to underhanded tactics by Microsoft. That is part of the reason behind the lawsuits by the US Justice Department and several states recently. (Microsoft settled if you recall).

    At the time, both companies were trying to one-up each other with new features, and wanted them incorporated into the standard. I do not recall that Netscape performed the standard properties badly. (Years ago, I worked with James Clark, the founder of Netscape. Not that we were best friends, but I did sit next to him during lunch. :) )

    I'm not allowed to post links yet. A better source is "Xiti Monitor" and their browser barometer. ArsTechnica uses them for their updates.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  16. Shreyash

    Shreyash Active Member

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    #96
    Still, FF3 will be better.
     
    Shreyash, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  17. gryffin11

    gryffin11 Peon

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    #97
    this is great news, hopefully we wont need all the IE fixes in code now
     
    gryffin11, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  18. Yankee85

    Yankee85 Peon

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    #98
    So do I! And I like IE7 over FF now. Great to see that IE8 (even beta) passes the tests.
     
    Yankee85, Mar 25, 2008 IP
  19. techpr

    techpr Well-Known Member

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    #99
    If you are addicted to IE7, you seriously need rehab :D
    try Firefox.
     
    techpr, Mar 25, 2008 IP
  20. Yankee85

    Yankee85 Peon

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    #100
    Microsoft is going ahead to recover the server and browser marketshare. That's why Windows 2008 will be above Linux, Windows PowerShell will be above bash, IIS 7 will be above Apache, and Ie 8 will be above FF.

    BTW, document yourself before throwing conclusions. Use those products and compare them with their competitors.
    Microsoft is on the right track now. No more myths ;)
     
    Yankee85, Mar 25, 2008 IP