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I refuse to pay negative balance what happens?

Discussion in 'PayPal' started by Jose Garcia, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. #1
    I sold bitcoins online and I was victim of a Scammer.

    I sent the coins (virtual currency) he paid me by paypal and a few days later he charged back.

    Fortunately I already withdrew the money before that but now I have a negative balance of $954 USD for more than 40 days and Paypal is claiming it back.

    I refuse to pay them because it's very unfair. I explained and show proofs that the coins were sent and the buyer actually made the payment but they just didn't make any investigation and gave the money back to the buyer. They just did NOTHING to try to investigate but now they're doing everything possible to charge me that money... I think that' unfair and I told them so in my last collection call.

    My Paypal account is addressed in the US but I don't live there nor I'm a US citizen. I do have US Bank accounts on Bank of America but the account I had associated with paypal I closed it along with the repective debit card so they're not able to get the money from that account.

    The phone number I had registered with that Paypal account was a Google Voice phone number and the same. I closed it.

    They threat to send the debt to a collection agency but as far as I know I have no credit contract with Paypal and even if I did I don't have SSN nor TaxPayer ID since I'm not US resident nor citizen. The US bank accounts I have, I opened them as a tourist (I'm mexican and travel very often to the US)

    What happens if I never pay that money and never use that paypal account again?
    SEMrush
    Can they do something legal against me?
    DO they use to send debt collector to the address I have registered? (it's a relative's address and I wouldn't like to they get bothered)
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 8, 2014 IP
    SEMrush
  2. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #2
    They can, but it depends on whether you've reached the threshold for being worthwhile.
     
    sarahk, Feb 8, 2014 IP
  3. Khalsakid

    Khalsakid Member

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    #3
    They can easily track down where you live its not that hard.
     
    Khalsakid, Feb 8, 2014 IP
  4. Rado_ch

    Rado_ch Well-Known Member

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    #4
    The thing with PayPal is that they tend to be overprotective for their Buyers making room for more scammers on this side of the deal. I am actually all for disputing, as I've personally seen that a Seller can win a dispute and it wasn't even that hard - a friend of mine had some bike parts sent to a person in Hong Kong, who later claimed back his money on the accusations of the parts being faulty. As this was pretty far away from the truth, we had some exchange of emails with detailed explanations and all the correspondence between him and the Buyer. In that line of thoughts have you tried contacting the Buyer to ask them why are they claiming their money as the goods were properly delivered to them? Every piece of correspondence with their refusal to cooperate counts.

    Its a completely different case if PayPal just decides to be uncooperative too. Even if you give them tons of evidence, its no guarantee that they will bother to make the ruling. With BitCoins its even a little trickier, as they are intangible goods, and such sales have very shaky grounds to be proven in the first place. I would try to reason with the Buyer or ask PayPal on what you can do to help your case with them. As for legal issues, its not such a familiar ground for me, so I won't mislead you with my guesses ;)
     
    Rado_ch, Feb 8, 2014 IP
  5. Khalsakid

    Khalsakid Member

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    #5
    I sold someone a game account they charged back not did i only lose $ + the account PayPal took an extra $10 out of my PayPal for some fee just imagine the rage...
     
    Khalsakid, Feb 8, 2014 IP
  6. Sugavanas

    Sugavanas Active Member

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    #6
    Actually i am not sure how the buyer won the dispute.

    As i paid someone on dp 130$ ans i opened a dispute as i did not receive the product from him nor he responded back to my messages.

    When i opened a dispute, seller responded that he had sent it and then when i contacted paypal they said that digital products are not counted. So, even if you did not deliver him the bitcoins, paypal still can't charge you back as it is a digital product.

    In this case, the buyer could have paid using credit card which he charged back using his bank [not paypal] and the mistake is on paypal, not you.
     
    Sugavanas, Feb 9, 2014 IP
    Karen May Jones likes this.
  7. Jose Garcia

    Jose Garcia Peon

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    #7
    Of course I tryed to contact the buyer but it seems it's a scammer... I'm not the only one scammed by this guy... actually the localbitcoins staff banned his account and they sent me his phone number and IP logs, a lot of ppl were scammed by this guy not only me... I sent all that info to Paypal but they're just... un cooperative
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  8. Jose Garcia

    Jose Garcia Peon

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    #8
    In my case I don't care about trying to win the dispure or anything.. it's time waste..

    The thing is that I refuse to pay'em... and even if I did... I have no money to pay'em.. You know... sending bitcoins it's like sending cash money... it's an irreversible payment so I can't get that money back so I have no money to pay paypal... and even if I did I REFUSE to payment because it's unfair.

    I don't care it they track me where I live (in this case Mexico) as Khalsakid said... actually I have another paypal account addressed here so I don't think it would be big deal for them to track me... and beleave me I don't care... as you can imagine.. here in Mexico there are things more complicated and more important to attend for (mexican) authorities than dealing with a non-paying debtor and I haven't commited a crime either so I don't think I'll have a problem here... Even in the US I have no credit contract with paypal and as I said I'm not US citizen nor resident so no credit history just becuase I don't have SSN nor Taxpayer ID... nothing.

    The only thing that concerns me is if my family in the US could have a problem or could be bothered or something by debt collectors.
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  9. Sugavanas

    Sugavanas Active Member

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    #9
    Contact paypal by phone.

    I heard that phone support team is better than the email support team. [i hate the email support team myself]
     
    Sugavanas, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  10. dscurlock

    dscurlock Prominent Member

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    #10
    I guess if you want to play the double blame game, then that is fine...
    someone scams you, and then you scam paypal, then ask whats the worst that can happen....
    If you think about it, you are not that much better then the person who scammed you, right?
    paypal doesnt take the moral road, so why should you....

    You say you dont have a SS number right? So who's SS number are
    you using in able to fraud paypal? Because I think they require a SS number...
    they are going to realize very quickly that it does not belong to you...
    not that it will matter much; they will just consider you the scammer....

    not only that, whoever that paypal is linked too, and I assume you
    bought it, hacked it, whatever, that owner will be sent to collections.
    (feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

    When you get a chance;
    feel free to read up on paypals TOS...
    and dont be shocked that you lost a virtual
    battle because it is in the TOS, and pretty known...
    (read up on other violations too)

    btw, as long as your family members are not attached to
    that account, then you are ok, but if they are the holder
    of that account, then they will be sent to collections.....
    (I guess you better give that family member a heads up)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
    dscurlock, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  11. averyz

    averyz Well-Known Member

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    #11
    What will happen is Paypal will probably sell your debt to a collection agency one of their main tactics is to continually contact family members when they cannot find you.

    You might also get in trouble if you used any fake info to open the account if they investigate and find you use fraud to open the account it could be felonies involved. Many people make money from processing felonies and you can always get people trying to collect that money that is connected to you.
     
    averyz, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  12. dscurlock

    dscurlock Prominent Member

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    #12
    If they call they are not supposed to talk about the debt, when I was a child...I owed money
    for some computer parts (and they were quite expensive back then) they were not happy
    with the payments I were sending in (or not sending in) so they decided to make phon calls
    to ma and pa, and explain to them if I did not pay, then they would call the police, and I would
    be charged for something, and go to prison, they paid the bill, and I did not hear about it until
    months after the fact; that made me so $%^ mad; if they make such claims like that today,
    then they no doubt could end up getting sued for making such threats....

    but this isnt about me is it :)

    and unless you are some incredible hacker, then paypal already
    knows who you are or about; they knew that the first time
    you logged into your paypal account from home, and any
    location between here and there, and they know your family
    locations if they logged in, and signed up for you....

     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
    dscurlock, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  13. averyz

    averyz Well-Known Member

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    #13
    Debt collection can get pretty sleazy these days. Many of the old debts are sold for pennies on the dollar and fly by night companies buy the debt, rent a cheap office space, hire cheap workers to try to collect it anyway they can.

    I knew a woman that worked for one place she was nasty. The guy she worked for had access to private investigator databases with peoples info, their families info, work info, ect. She would call up peoples grandma, mom, ex girl friends and get info any way she could. Tell the grandma they were going to jail unless she got the money by 5pm, tell the ex girl friend she would help her get revenge, she was a nasty wench.

    The company was just a fly by night out fit they also did repos(and other shady things) and would toss away trade names like they were nothing.

     
    averyz, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  14. dedideals

    dedideals Member

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    #14
    What the issue is, paypal do not cover intangible items, which is what this is.

    Their policy is not covering these and there for paypal will not be too bothered to help, they probably wont hurt you but I am unsure how lethal they are about debt in the US
     
    dedideals, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  15. Jose Garcia

    Jose Garcia Peon

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    #15

    I correct you because you're totally wrong... you know absolutely nothing about paypal... at least in the US.
    Paypal doesn't ask for a SSN.. not mandatory... you can put it but OPTIONAL.
    They just require 2 of the 3 steps to be a fully "Verified member"
    1. Have a US Checking account linked and confirmed
    2. Have a Credit card linked and confirmed
    3. Input your SSN

    They only require two of those 3 in my case I used 1 and 2 but not 3 so NO SSN WAS INPUT. In fact when I was asked about nationality I entered Mexico.

    I just used my Bank of America Account and my debit card of that account. And the same for opening a bank account in the US you're not required to have a SSN... you can open it as a foreigner and that's what I did when I opened it.

    If you don't know about it quiet you look better than saying bul$hit

    and BTW I'm not scamming paypal... Paypal is scamming me doing nothing to try to chase that scammer they didn't even give me chance to send the proofs I have. I'm not the only one scammed by that guy but many... and when you support a criminal like paypal is doing you become an accomplice?... that's why I refuse to pay'em... I know about that TOS about selling online goods but as today in the US bitcoins are not considered goods.... neither currencies nor commodities and in their TOS says nothing about bitcoins.
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  16. sundaybrew

    sundaybrew Numerati

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    #16
    I just found a bunch of LIES !

    http://www.paypalsucks.com/

    How could these people say this?

    AND on Facebook too?

    https://www.facebook.com/NoPayPal

    But Paypal is so awesome, I mean look at the BBB

    http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-reviews/payment-processing-service/paypal-in-san-jose-ca-210387

    Customer Complaints SummaryRead complaint details
    5958 complaints closed with BBB in last 3 years | 1664 closed in last 12 months
    Complaint TypeTotal Closed Complaints
    Advertising / Sales Issues838
    Billing / Collection Issues1597
    Delivery Issues93
    Guarantee / Warranty Issues115
    Other81
    Problems with Product / Service3234
    Total Closed Complaints 5958
    - See more at: http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business...al-in-san-jose-ca-210387#sthash.Ad7K33jC.dpuf

    BUT THEY HAVE AN A+ RATTING !
     
    sundaybrew, Feb 9, 2014 IP
    averyz likes this.
  17. Jose Garcia

    Jose Garcia Peon

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    #17
    You don't need to be an "incredible hacker" to hide your location... it's enough if you use an anonymous VPN or even if you use TOR Network is totally anonymous... one time they can record an IP from germany and a few minutes later it switches automatically to anotherone in Australia an later to anotherone in Colombia an so on and thousands of ppl connected to the same IP... they can detect you're using TOR but it's nearly impossible to know your real IP. If I wanted to do things worng (probably it had been better) I could've done that using totally fake data, fake address and opening a virtual bank account with a fake ID (you can get them pretty easy and cheap here in Mexico... even passports) on many online paying systems to use it on paypal. And I bet you it would be very hard to be traced

    But I didn't.. that's another thing I have no need for that.. and I have nothing to hide... I used my real data... and my real name and address (my relative's address) which is a confirmed address and it's the address I have on my Bank account. So I have nothing to hide. and I know they can't do legal actions against me because I have no credit contract with paypal.
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  18. Jose Garcia

    Jose Garcia Peon

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    #18
    As far as I know in the US a debt colector is required to send a SIGNED PROOF that you ACTUALLY OWE that money. If they don't do it, it could be considered a harrassment (I don't know if it's well writen.. sorry english it's not my first lang) and you can SUE them for that.

    And that's what I said to the collector on the last call (before I closed the google voice account): I have no credit contract with paypal and you're required by law to show me that I acually owe that money and as obviously you don't have it I'm gonna sue you if you continue calling me and yes, I'm recording this call too. I don't know if they bought it but I said that and hung up the phone and they didn't call later.

    The next day I closed the google voice account so I don't know if they tried to call days later.
     
    Jose Garcia, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  19. dscurlock

    dscurlock Prominent Member

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    #19
    It is up to paypal on what they do.
    I can tell you what surely will happen.

    1: You just burned that paypal account...
    (and you burned that account owner of using paypal)

    2: They will send the paypal holder to collections....

    and like you said, you claim they cant touch you...
    (no need of singing that same song and dance...)
     
    dscurlock, Feb 9, 2014 IP
  20. Matthew Sayle

    Matthew Sayle Prominent Member

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    #20
    Last I checked, Paypal didn't moderate the sales of intangible goods. Did you make sure they knew this was for virtual currency?
     
    Matthew Sayle, Apr 1, 2015 IP