I forgive the US if they elect Dr. Ron Paul

I believe in the Constitution of the Unites States as a divinely inspired document, the most powerful manifesto of Freedom in the history of man.

I believe that we get our rights from our creator, and that men are born with certain unalienable rights.

I believe in the American traditions of innovation, civil liberties, capitalism and free markets.

I respect the Rule of Law, and I expect my civil servants like the President to honor his oath to the Constitution, and the defense of the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I believe in Habeus Corpus, and the ideas in the Magna Carta.

I believe in a strong national defense, as well as commerce and travel with all nations.

I believe in the second amendment, and the right of every citizen to have the means to protect themselves.

I believe in the separation of church and state, that America has strong roots in Christianity, but that tolerance of all religions, as long as they are not harmful or impose themselves on others are the right of every citizen.

I believe in strong borders, and I do not believe in rewarding people who come here illegally, or the countries they come from that promote their exodus through bad rule and mismanagement.

I believe in America being a strong force for change in the world, a beacon of hope for those worse off, but not at the barrel of a gun, rather through maintaining proof that free markets and liberty work, and socialism and authoritarianism fail. I believe in an America where someone can come from another land and make a better life for themselves. I believe in upward mobility, and that the rich are not an aristocracy.

I believe in the right of the people to decide as much as possible at the local level, without government bureaucracies in Washington making blanket decisions for the nation.

And I believe that a woman has a right to her own body, but I also believe that unborn children have rights.

That's a good chunk of what I believe.

 

Do you believe ceaselessly tearing America down on a forum every day, having talking points that resemble those of terrorists, and blaming America first and always for the world's problems is patriotism?

Or will you dismiss it as a "strawman" because it hits home?

 

Those beliefs are the product of war and liberation

 

Some people steal their freedoms off the backs of others who have fought in war and liberation, never thankful for that sacrifice. Instead, they use those very freedoms to attack their very own country day in and day out, while hiding behind the Constitution... an oath to protect that these very men and women gave their life for.

Again, I will never understand what drives them to hate America so much. As they've clearly demonstrated, they WILL stand up for themselves when attacked, but they wont' stand up for their Country. I can't think of any finer example of a self-servant than that.

 

Exactly. I'd like to know what the long term strategy is for stopping terrorism. Is it killing all Muslims? Is it removing the religion of over a billion people from the face of the earth? Or are terrorists created by some other means?

There is never any logic to this, merely a game of whack-a-mole. As long as we keep putting quarters into the machine, more moles will pop up to whack.

The people who advocate killing as a means to end terrorism, probably don't understand terrorism from an intellectual standpoint. Numerous studies have shown that terrorism is a by product of an environment or in response to an action, not something that people are born to do.

Sometimes, I want to just give you a big old hug.

I'm an American. America is not about doctrine or group think. It's about the spirit of individualism and independence.

I don't think I have the view point of a terrorist, but I do think I have a better and more researched background on what causes and promotes terrorism than many of the gun toting bible thumpers.

I'd like to know, specifically, what I have written that is Anti-American. But first, please define what it is to be American.

GRIM has been writing a lot of stuff about wanting to support Huckabee, and how you make a lot of good arguments. I think you are winning him over to the side that thinks our government has an arrogant bunker mentality.

But he still thinks Huck is a bit of a wimp on Guantanamo.

 

You got your degree in mental health where again?

Actually in one post I was backing you up Gtech, not every post has to be made against you. But I guess since you've got a degree in mental health you are able to see what a post is without even reading it.

I am not seeing Guerilla tearing down America, unless of course Huck is tearing it down as well

Why, oh why did I take you off ignore. It was so much nicer when I could simply view a post if I wanted to see it of yours.

 

First, I wouldn't dare say I know what all of the world's problems are caused by. Some part of me believes that human nature has good and bad in it. So for say, love and hope, we also have jealousy and greed. The world is not evil, it's imperfect, just as we are.

I don't ceaselessly tear down America. You've even criticized my discussing bad monetary policy on inflation as being Anti-American. As though the government never does anything wrong, and yet you never engage in the debate, to explain how (I assume) someone else in the world is to blame for inflation or bad monetary policy.

I've said it many times before, and I will say it again, hopefully you remember it this time. You criticize Clinton's policies, and that doesn't make you anti-American. But I criticize Bush's policies and it does. It's illogical. Policy is not America. The rule of law, makes America what it is. Not policy decisions by the latest regime in government. If you think the President makes you American, then you have a very shallow view of what this country is about.

As far as talking points that resemble, you will have to point those out to me. I doubt the terrorists want us to stop fighting them, when we fight them our people die, they grow in size, and we continue to bankrupt this country. It's in their best interests (from my understanding) for us to keep fighting, fighting for another 50 years. They will still be around, but we will be a lot weaker.

Well, you posed a question, you didn't attribute a belief or position to me. So this one is not a strawman.

 

Examples of these studies? How do they compare with studies done that show al qaida recruits are most often middle class muslims (not unlike the 9/11 terrorists, the 3/3 terrorists, the 7/7 terrorists and any number of plots uncovered since then).

We've argued over this before. Remember when you first came to the forum? You were defending terrorists by suggesting the quran doesn't preach this sort of thing. Even though I proved you wrong, you claimed your copy of the quran was in your garage. Is it still there?

We're twisting here. Read what I write and no twisting. So you are not ashamed that YOUR views are similar to terrorists? Would a terrorist want ron paul, or Mike Huckabee as a president?

As an individual, do you find it odd that you are ceaselessly working to tear America down every day, yet you rarely (if ever) have a bad word to say about terrorism, nor do you respond in those threads? What does an observation like that say?

That's easy. Re-read this post. After that, do a search in this forum for all posts you have started. Are they supporting America, or ceaselessly criticizing? I can take a screen capture, if you'd like. We had a bet a while back where I offered $50 to the ron paul campaign if you could find one thread (just one!) that you started here that was positive about America. Unfortunately, you could not claim that money for your candidate. Yet you have to ask what the defintion of an American is, and have someone point it out to you? I'm trying to point out a thread you've started positive about America, and you are asking for that isn't? LMAO!

So GRIM is just sucking up and giving you a pass? Kind of what I thought. He used to have a backbone, but once he decided on the kooks and cranks candidate (was anyone really surprised?), he won't stand up for America anymore.

I'd be surprised. What he says and what he defends are often two different positions. A month ago, he spent untold energy defending terrorists at gitmo about something he later admitted wasn't a problem. He has no trust factor with me.

Can you recall the last time, if ever, you actually stood up for America? Not terrorists, not those who hate America, certain not Iran (we could find many of those), but actually America?

 

They are a product of revolution, not just war. They are deeply held philosophical beliefs. They exist everywhere, in many people's hearts and minds. We revolted against Britain, and yet the British have many of the same freedoms we do, in some cases, even more.

It's not enough to be thankful. You have to be willing to continue the fight because liberty was not one absolutely and forever in a single battle.

Today, we don't have habeus corpus. We have secret warantless searches. We no longer have posse comitadus. We have direct taxation. All of these things are in direct or indirect violation of the Constitution. And yet there are half of the people on this forum willing to discuss it, and another half who claim they are not patriotic for doing so.

We've ended up with a nation that can no longer discuss history or law. Just rhetoric. Never in my life, have I heard so many Americans accuse other Americans of not being patriotic. Not even during Vietnam. Somehow, if you exercise your right to free speech, you're subtly labeled a traitor, or a terrorist lover. It's fascism. It's the kind of dogmatic cheerleading that Hitler used to rise to power in Germany.

No one allowed to criticize the state, and if they do, they are traitors. Seriously, research the lead up to Hitler reaching power.

I'm not going to defend what I do every single day to promote liberty, or how much it has cost me.

I want a strong America, not a strong corporate empire. All empires come to an end, and when they do, the people suffer. I would like to make sure that Americans never suffer for the imperial hubris of others.

 

I agree with this guy. We need to start a nuclear war as soon as possible if we want to get the next generation of iphone

 

Contrast that with, America never does right. Can you recall the last time you made a post or thread that was positive about America? Have you ever not criticized America over something. Perhaps we could say "America makes great hot dogs?" Or would that be going over the top?

Likewise, you have made politically biased comments about the economy. Thanks for bringing this up. Yet another area I've never seen anything positive about. ReadyToGo often counters these biased comments with unbiased facts.

I've never torn our country down in doing so. The biggest thing I've taken issue with Clinton over, is NOT DOING ENOUGH to fight terrorism! Something I'd figure you would be quite proud of him for doing. Most of my comments about Clinton here have been in pointing out how liberals and those hateful of America and suffering chronic BDS, will point out "but, but, but unemployment is at 4.8%!!!!" Uh, yeah! This was heralded as a success under Clinton. And any numerous comparisons along those lines.

I am an American. When you trash our country, give it credit for things it was not responsible for, use fictitious numbers to paint it in a bad light (do yo ever use fictitious numbers to paint it positively?), you trash me. You have no problem defending yourself from criticism. Even when I'm right, you will still defend it. But you won't do the same for your country? Is there any circumstance in which you would stand up for your country? Would you ever, online (while ron paul is NOT president) stand up for your country?

So you would rather negotiate with terrorists, ask them what we can do to buy them off, and hope they will give us leniency? Is this the basis for ron pauls foreign policy?

Our forefathers fought the same battle with the barbary pirates. The option then, as it is today, is to pay the jizyah for extortion money. Our forefathers chose to kick ass. They didn't give in when the times got tough. What would have happened to our country if they had?

 

You honestly mean to tell me, that the numerous times I have posted these studies for you, you have never bothered to read them, and are asking for them again? Let's make it clear, I will post them this last time, and if you do this rope-a-dope game of pretending you never saw them posted, I am going to call you out on it. They'll follow this post, because I have to dig them up again, and I will also Pm the link to the post to you.

I don't own a garage. You're fabricating again. Proof?

Ron Paul, No. Huckabee, maybe. Don't know enough about Huck's foreign policy decisions. He's in the "say anything to get elected" phase right now.

My views are totally different from the terrorists. My views are totally different from the government's policies, which have not eradicated terrorism, and by all accounts, created more of it.

So now the language has changed to criticizing from tearing down. Interesting. I am wondering if you believe people are allowed the right to criticize?

I didn't take your bet because you weren't going to pay up. You can see my earlier post to this thread to see how I feel about America, and it's very positive.

Again, please define what it is to be American, and don't bother using negatives such as "An American is not this, and is not that.". Tell all of us, what a GTech American stands for. Clearly and comprehensively.

GRIM is all over me right now for supporting Ron Paul. He says that Huckabee is emerging as the stronger candidate. Someone who can lay his hand on the head of a terrorist, exclaim "You're saved!" and bring them back into the light.

I stand up for America against you every single day it seems. I stand up for capitalism, free markets, a strong border, civil liberties, and small constitutional government.

I hate to get personal like this, but it begs the question. Are you really this insecure about your service, and the service of your family members past and present, that if a conclusion was reached that many of these military experiences were unnecessary, or even counter productive, it would somehow undermine any self-worth you've created by attaching yourself to the flag and militarism so absolutely?

And 1 more question if you don't mind. Do you put God or country first? I'm curious.

 

Actually I questioned every post I have not agreed with, doesn't matter what side it was on..

I guess saying you deserved respect because of your service was also not having a backbone, and siding with 'kooks and cranks'

 

By tying your country's hands behind it's back? While ceaselessly attacking your country for going after those that ARE continuing to fight? By giving aid and comfort to terrorists? By ceaselessly attacking your country? Sorry, gurella, I just don't understand how pacifism and "blaming America first" is being thankful and fighting liberty. Liberty for whom? Those that want to harm our country?

We? As in prisoners of Guantanamo? Are we sensitive to terrorists having rights our forefathers fought and died for? Have you read up on this? Is it really suspended?

Carter and Clinton used secret warantless searches as well. It's not illegal. We have always been taxed. Not sure when you were born, but for as long as I've been around, we have been taxed. Taxation is not in violation of the Constitution. Those making this kooky argument are behind bars for testing it out. Don't get me wrong here, I'm ready for a change here. We can't just go around making up our own facts and pretending things are, when they are not.

Perhaps those Americans should stop posting ceasless attacks on their country every day. Assigning blame to it for the world's problems. Making up and using false claims and numbers to attack it with. Never in my life, have I seen so many anti-Americans.

Godwin's law has no place here. Such a pity poor comparison that it's an insult to those killed during that time. Some people need to hide behind "free speech" more than others. Perhaps those that do, have a reason? Perhaps it's because of what others point out? Otherwise they wouldn't have a need to invoke it. You can say anything you want. I can also point out you are doing it. Free speech works both ways.

Contrast this extremism with this:

One is only allowed to criticize the state, and since it's all they do, they are not traitors? I'm well aware of what led up to hitler reaching power. I'm also aware of how others hide behind it to cover up their own shortcomings. Knowing they do what they do, knowing they ceaselessly criticize their own country, while giving cordial respect to Iran and it's leader, who has American blood on it's hands, they will hide behind Hitler for political convenience, rather than accept responsibility for their words. What's really illuminating about this, is that it is "desperation" on the part of the person in defending himself. But as pointed out, would never stand up and defend his own country.

I'm sure you invested a lot into the ron paul blimp. That's not what I was referring to though

We are a strong America. Despite those that tear it down every day in the presense of islamists here, who take great pleasure in American infidels doing such.

 

Suicide Terrorism
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081...SIN=0812973380

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism

Harper's : Six Questions for Michael Scheuer on National Security

 

I'm still waiting for the victory strategy that will straighten out Iraq and instill democracy in the middle east. Or at least a reason why it is in our best interest to stay there. I personally don't care if Gtech considers everyone who disagrees with him a traitor or not, it is obvious he is not going to change his mind on that so why even try?

 

I look forward to seeing the huffington post studies. In fact, I'll cross check to see if you actually have posted them before. I guess I'll have to dig mine out. Why you don't remember them, for as many times as I've posted them here, is beyond me.

You are most correct. Instead, you have storage.

If that were true, his religion wouldn't be at hand. He says what he means. He's made it clear many will not agree with him. You must be thinking of ron paul.

Who has ever eradicated terrorism? Wherever the quran goes, blood flows. No one is going to eradicate it. I disagree about your views.

Actually, you changed it. I just followed along with the kinder softer and gentler adjective to describe it.

Did you see my response? Try to keep up

I find that very disingenuous. Let's not pretend. If I recall, that offer was open to ANYONE as well. I'm not interested in a scripted quote of what you want, when backed into a corner. I want to see something you've done on your own. I've yet to see it. That offer still stands, BTW. Going from the date I made the challenge, if ANYONE can find one single thread that guerilla has started here, that is positive about America, I will donate $50 to the ron paul campaign. I will also post a full receipt I receive via email. Only a ron paul supporter who has donated would know.

All of us? You mean those that tear America down every day, and those who lost their backbone to stand up to such? If you need a definition of what it is to be an American, I suspect you have more issues than I thought. I won't play your definition game. Save it for someone else. Thanks for confirming you don't know what it is to be American.

LMAO! And some day GRIM will stand up for America again. I'm so tempted to "view post" on him, but he's just not worth it. Who knows, I could be wrong.

Kind of a sad reply I've never seen you stand up for America. Now, I've seen you attack her. Daily, without question. Using false materials? Yep! I've never seen you miss an opportunity to do so. You believe that is standing UP for America? Is right left and left right? Is red green and green red?

I do to. But every now and then, I get fed up with all the anti-Americanism I see here. And since you were not man enough to stand up to fletch's despicable posting and since GRIM won't do it because he's now a ron paul supporter, I chose to do it.

They are counter productive. Here's my offer. Stop tearing my country down day in and day out and I'll stop calling you on it. Fair enough?

Just like you feel the urge to defend YOURSELF when these things are pointed out, I FEEL THE NEED to DEFEND MY COUNTRY when others ceaselessly attack it.

And unless we come to some sort of agreement on the America bashing and ripping "our" country up in the presence of islamists and other anti-Americans here, I'm going to keep right at it until I'm either banned or it stops.

I'm sure you'd probably rather the ban, than stop bashing America. I feel confident I can sustain.


And 1 more question if you don't mind. Do you put God or country first? I'm curious.[/QUOTE]

 

hey GTech, do you see all the little terrorists coming to get you at night when you sleep? do you carry a m4 next to your bed? with a colt 45 under your pillow? security system up with 50 cameras outside your 1000 square foot house?

I think i figured you out, your a mental case that came back from the war. You carry yourself pretty well for being a nut case though. Good job.

 

I would be happy to explain this to you, but we're gunna need to put aside the ad hominem attacks and name calling. It's a good topic because I don't feel I have been able to properly make my case to you.

And I am not a pacifist. That is a mis-characterization.

Yes, please read that. There is no longer any protection for citizens.

Warantless searches are one of the reasons the Founders revolted against the British. The Red Coats would come to people's homes, force their way in, and inspect goods and papers to make sure they had the King's seal on them. Warantless searches are illegal if you believe the Constitution is the highest law in the land. It's this crazy thing called the 4th Amendment.

Perhaps your definition is too broad. Are you going to define (positively) what an American is?

Look, if you don't believe in natural law, and you have no respect for the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence, that's your deal.

But I am really sick and tired of you accusing people of hiding behind their human rights. It's absolutely sickening the depths you will go to in order to continue making your argument. The Constitution isn't something to stand in front of or behind. It's a foundation for our entire way of life, and legal system. When you talk about people hiding behind their rights, it's like that attributed quote of Bush's, that the "Constitution is just a piece of goddamned paper". Yes, people died for those rights. Absolute rights.

Now you're taking the dogmatic rhetoric even further, insinuating that anyone who invokes free speech is using it as a defense mechanism. Shifting the argument, and slandering your counterparts. I'm really disappointed that you speak so poorly about what your ancestors fought for. You should be disappointed in yourself as well.

America has Iranian blood on it's hands too! You just do not seem to get it. This is about right and wrong, it's about being honest.

I'm not hiding behind Hitler. You exhibit the exact nationalistic extremism that allowed him to surge to power. You criticize constitutional rights and law, you want the media to be silenced, you expect absolute devotion to the government, you believe in pre-emptive war, and you constantly try to re-manufacture external and internal threats to stimulate paranoia.

I haven't invested a dime into the blimp. There are better uses in the campaign for my money.

You don't have the background in history or economics to understand what is going on under the surface GTech. All is not well, simply because you declare it so. There are a lot of problems, probably better targets for you like socialism and globalism, but you continue to play the pollyanna, rally round the family with a pocket full of shells nonsense.

I'm still looking for answers on your personal investment into the wars being justified, and whether you value God higher than country.

 

Heh, I thought you were going to post something credible. Michael Scheuer? The ron paul supporter that hates Israel?

Good Lord

Here, let me provide some additional sources:

http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itps/0806/ijpe/sageman.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article542420.ece

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2004/cover1Aug2004.htm

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=47247&in_page_id=34

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2005/07/318982.html

I could keep going back through my archives. I believe what I've posted makes the point.