I feel scammed !

You are right ,but i don`t have the time. I will begin to learn this some day.. and I am going to do it. You know why? I read somewhere that one can`t be a good coder and good designer at the same time because of each person brain capability. Each side of the brain controls different types of thinking. Let me give you an example: The Right Brain is for recognizing faces, expressing, emotions, music, reading emotions, color, images, intuition, creativity and the left-side Brain is for language, logic, critical thinking, numbers, reasoning, etc. One side is emotional and the other is logic. So when you hear someone that he is good at both designing and coding that guy must be some sort of a genius because there was one man that could use his both sides of the brain at a very high capacity. His name was Leonardo da Vinci. So this is a chalenge

 

I started to reply to some of your comments in this thread. I just won't take the time for it.

Your OP reads like a nightmare craigslist ad. Your follow ups are worse,and hypocritical to the OP, where you're a moralist about other people's behavior and calling them nasty names becuase they won't do hours and hours of work - more than you did - at what you imagine is a good price. I mean a good price for you because they exist to serve you not to eat right?

It's awesome that you drew a picture of a website on your computer. I hope you find some way to turn it into a website some day.

Sheeeesh...

I don't know what I was thinking.

 

If you think problem you can report CL

 

Solution: go to odesk.com and look for a coder from Serbia. Most work for $5 an hour and they speak relatively good english and they know what they are doing.

 

IMO $300 for slicing 10 pages photoshop design is reasonable for hiring junior developer, don't expect beautiful code from that kind of money. like semantic code, responsive design, works on all browsers (including iE7), small css code, etc etc.

Why? when you hire a coder, you are hiring his / her time, and debugging and testing takes lots of times which $300 can't really buy much ($30 / hour? only 10 hours)

 

The thing is, the methodology in question means we have a notion of what it contains, at least on the accessibility front -- most likely elements that force it into being a fixed width layouts, quite possibly elements that force content areas into fixed metric fonts, and almost certainly dozens of "But I can do it in photoshop" bits of "gee ain't it neat" nonsense that has no business on a website in the first place.

THOUGH YOU ARE RIGHT -- we are guessing wildly because you didn't show us your work. EVERYTHING we've said in this thread is built on assumptions -- but that's because you didn't give us the whole picture.

 

I don't think coders deserve that kind of money. It's no that hard to learn the code and most just try to get something for a couple hours of work. I've dealt with over a hundred in my time. This is why coders need to be paid very low for their work.

 

Whenever I hear that type of nonsense, it takes a good deal of self control not to start frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog... while one might have that type of attitude if you've only ever had garbage coders or script kiddies still having life paid for by mommy and daddy, adult professionals doing this for a living have legitimate expenses that are reflected in that high 'per hour billable' rate or the total cost of what they deploy. MORE so if they aren't total sleazeballs crapping out off the shelf solutions that do more damage than good for the client.

More so for freelancers. Who's paying for the student loans and personal time spent honing one's craft? Who's paying for the time spent promoting oneself and searching for clients? A freelance developer can spend 60 hours a week 'working', and only come up with four or five hours billable time for the week! It's like realtors -- sure they get a nice big lump sum for every closing, but when someone working their ass off in this economy can only average one closing a month, and have half their income end up being sucked down by getting licensed, educated to handle the legal paperwork, maintaining that education and certification, for many people they'd make more money for less hours flipping burgers!

Which is why whenever someone balks at something like $100 up front and $80 an hour, it just shows what an ignorant twit they are, and how one is probably better off without them as a client. In a lot of ways it's a litmus test -- like "did they say web 2.0" or "demand HTML 5 despite not even knowing what that means" -- cases where you're better off kicking them to the curb than wasting your time on them, since usually clients of that nature will cost you more than just walking away.

What we do -- IF DONE PROPERLY -- is far more complex than anything an accountant or lawyer is expected to handle; but everyone balks at our getting paid a fraction what they do. That's not just unjust, it's borderline criminal.

So next time someone bags you $200 for a "two to three hours work" -- THINK about all the time they spent unpaid if not spending their own money and putting themselves years into debt to get to the point where they could do that work for you!

While I want to end it with a rather nasty insult, I'll borrow from Auntie Em instead.

 

I just remember i `ve had this tread. Here`s what happened. I`ve paid the coder for his work. I paid him on 18 or 16 december - don`t remember exactly but i`m not going to look, you`ll see why in a sec - and on february 1 he only coded 2 pages. the login page and the main page. The thing was he had an associate who is a programer and i needed his services to , so i`ve paid him to on the same date. from 18 december till 4 january i said to myself "heh, xmas is comming , the new year . i will let the guys work when they have time" . After 4 january they announced that they will "continue" work. I said ok and for this full month they la la la the whole thing and i decided to just give up on their services. the programer did his job , VERY late but he did it and the coder did only 2 pages of work and i already paid him half of the deal. He paid me back $75 . So he took $75 for 2 pages of work lasting for more then a month. WOW!
Anyway after that i found another guy that i`ve workd with and he is ...just great. Seriously! I made my design and the website is launched . I`m currently working on another design for the main page.

PS. Thanks for you replies guys

 

That sounds exactly like what I go through. I, too, finally found someone good after countless disappointments. He lives in Serbia and as far as I know doesn't know what "I can't do that" means.

You know why it took a month? Either they were on drugs, not giving a damn about your project or they were juggling so many contracts at once that they couldn't or wouldn't give you their time....

 

That's actually something that pisses me off on both sides of the fence; you have the freelancers or even design firms who take money and do nothing leaving people hanging -- and the clients who stiff freelancers and even design firms making it standard practice to require a downpayment before work even begins.

The whole industry right now is filled with people not qualified to actually do the work, sleazeball scam artists who take the money and run, and endless disinformation and outright sleazy half-assed practices to belt out cookie cutter work -- regardless of if it actually meets the needs of the client, visitors to the client's site, or the viable cost of hosting said sites.

It's part of why I'm not all broken up about being medically retired, and why despite doctors orders I just came out of retirement for one client to belt out a quicky since I didn't like the idea of them getting boned by one of the many scam artists out there.

The laugh being I belted out their site in 3 hours work, over three days most of the delay being time zone difference mixed with my non-24...

... and I'm borderline bedridden and doped to the gills on enough Vicodin to kill Gregory House. What's their excuse?

But as I've said several times, between the fly-by-night scum giving freelancers a bad name, 'design firms' sleazing out cookie cutter bloated slow inaccessible trash using off the shelf parts, PSD jockeys pissing all over usability and accessibility, SEO scam artists running their mouths about shit they don't understand and quite often just making shit up and pulling half-truths out their asses, people who to be frank having no business having a website either from not understanding the point of having one or not understanding the expense a good one entails, unrealistic time schedules, and now this HTML 5 bullshit encouraging bloated code and sending coding practices back to the worst of the late '90's browser wars and HTML 3.2...

... my disgust to the point of nausea for the industry as a whole is at an all time high!

 

I don't know if this is related with your issue, but Za1ntc, one of the owners of IncentiveScripts and ClixScript, is in urgent need of experienced developers right now. The worst part is that he searches developpers on forums when no one actually deserves to HAVE a website in the first place! Maybe they couldn't find somebody to work with your website, so they postponed the thing... IMHO, ClixScript's become a huge mess since Lynnj left the group. I have worked with a LOT of ClixScript based website and got to tell you, their script could be better on all possible fronts, but it's just the best one PPC aka PTC industry can offer. Some of them are SO bad, that even crap like Prestashop or WHMCS looks good! Since you're not in able to spend any more money for it, I would suggest you to suck it up and wait.

Nonetheless, Lynnj didn't quit the industry, he's about to develop some new PPC/GPT software. As per his words, it'll be out for about 2 months. I would suggest to check that too.

 

... which is part of why I assume the entire PPC/PTC industry (especially that latter half) is one giant scam. Well, on top of it actually being one giant scam as the past decade has proven time and time again. There's a reason I wouldn't put that crap on my websites any more than I believe Carlton Sheets can teach me to make money fast in realty or that Amway is a legitimate business.

Much like Mary Kay, unless you're convincing others to run door to door for you instead of doing it yourself, there's no money in it.

 

It is true ! I know about that too. Actually i know this from my designer who did the standard clixscript design. He will also work on the design for the new script that this guy that you`ve mentioned will launch. I do my own design but i don`t have time to code too. Actually i don`t have time to learn how to code.

 

Yes it is a BIG SCAM as you`re saying but this is because of the new buxhost sites opening every week. Sites run by kind that dont know anything about anything and are only use to litteraly scream for help on forums. You can sense that from their posting.. They open today and die tomorrow, stealing , cheating , scamming, etc. It is a tough market especialy for the remaining ones that constantly need to reasure members that they are for real..on some level.

 

Let me guess, I-Vinci? 33Brushes? They all suck, big time.

 

Yes . I was very upset and angry at the same time, plus they didn`t give me any ..readme file to know what code did they place and on which files. I have updated the script and and already lost one addon and one is not working . I only have the backup that i`ve saved previously and don`t quite know where to look exactly for those file . There are almost two thousand files that i have to look into for that code. Is a pain in the ass and the programer , now, doesn`t respond to emails. I moved on anyway.

 

it was i-vinci and his partner the programer , yes ! Don`t quite care anymore. I`ve learned my lesson. He cound at least told me that he can`t do all the pages and we all could save time and money.

Oh and about 33Brushed i wanted to try their service but they dont work whit 3rd party .psd files . Looks like this is their policy or something.

 

A lot of the PSD conversion folks won't touch other people's PSD's partly out of ineptitude -- you may end up drawing something they don't know how to code... though really there are a lot of things you can do in photoshop that CANNOT be done in HTML+CSS... They may have 'standards' to at least try and not piss all over accessibility (though starting from a PSD you'll pretty much have done so anyways) meaning that what you draw isn't something they want their name associated with.

... but even more of a problem are all the things you can do in Photoshop that have NO MALFING BUSINESS ON A WEBSITE -- like fixed height content area's, perfect width layouts that cannot contain fluid content, non-scaling layout elements that cannot contain dynamic fonts and the most common of all -- over-use of bandwidth hogging images that makes nobody want to visit the site in the first place.

It's all part of what I call "But I can do it in Photoshop" idiocy, most all of it being "Not viable for web deployment" if you actually care about accessibility, sustainability, maintainability and host-ability. (It's all about one's abilities). It's also why I'm always ranting on about how starting out from some goofy picture or even set of pictures drawn in Photoshop is a completely back-assward way of building a website -- it's putting the cart before the horse and why to be brutally frank, if you're dicking around in Photoshop or the 'preview panes' in garbage like Frontpage or Dreamweaver before you have semantic markup of your content (or a reasonable facsimile) and a fully working responsive layout coded in CSS... Well, dimes to dollars you have an inaccessible bloated train wreck of ineptitude as a result.

It is broken methodology no matter how pretty the result is on the magical combination of screen size and system metrics you happen to be running. Just like the idiocy of WYSIWYGS the simple fact is that what you see is very unlikely to be what everyone gets -- and that's the POINT of HTML, CSS MEDIA types and now "responsive layout" -- to deliver the content in a manner that auto-adjusts to the capabilities of the visitor's "user agent", NOT the capabilities you have in Photoshop or Dreamweaver on your display.

Apart from it being flashy looking and preying on the ignorance of people who don't know any better, I cannot fathom how the entire bullshit approach of drawing goofy pictures in Photoshop caught on in the first place. It means I'm underestimating the ignorance, ineptitude or just plain laziness of others; something that should be impossible given my opinion of my fellow man.

This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of 'em.

 

Oh! that's sad, lots of bad and heartless developers busy scamming around. Just try to be careful and more watchful next time.