Never say never -- as hard as I rag on using <?php ?> -- there are times where it's more appropriate; like when just gluing together simple includes. I just dislike it the moment you get more complex than that. As I was just recently reminded there's SSI/SHTML -- which as a stepping stone between HTML and PHP works remarkably similar to <?php ?> for nothing more than simple includes. If I was building a site that way, I'd still consider it... it just falls flat on it's face for larger more complex work. EVERYTHING is another tool in the toolbox -- in this case we have a clawhammer, a deuce and a half lump, and a ball-pein. One's all purpose, one is brute force, another is for fine work. Never throw out a tool just because it doesn't fit todays task.