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How the blazes is bootstrap "easier"?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by deathshadow, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #41
    ... and you're ignoring my obvious questions and why I reject that. Why can't said "design and styling" be provided as vanilla HTML and CSS? What clients want the same cookie-cutter appearance, layout, and everything else as what any other know-nothing can vomit up with ^C^V?
    SEMrush
    HELL, the entire point of my previous post was to basically compare that it's really no more or less work to ^C^V vanilla HTML and CSS if it's done properly compared to the bootcrap code.

    What's so difficult about that for you to comprehend?

    Again, as I said, the problem isn't that vanilla HTML/CSS is "harder" than bootstrap! The lack of people following HTML/CSS' rules, the lack of quality OFFICIAL documentation, and the lack of proper examples/components people can copy/paste is what deludes people into THINKING the unfounded claims of "ease" made by bootstrap are true.

    Which is why if I'm going to keep going with this idea of a "new HTML"? Creating those precious "components" you keep mentioning, setting up proper "rules" and naming conventions for people to follow within it is essential. It's what's MISSING that deludes people into thinking bootstrap is "easier".

    I'm not dismissing the idea of those pre-built components. I'm dismissing the half-assed harder to work with AND harder for the people creating said components methodology of how bootcrap goes about it! Particularly when they are broken and inaccessible for many users -- in spite of bootcrap's bald-faced LIES about how great it is at cross browser functionality.

    Having easy stuff for people to copypasta isn't good when the implementation of them is such utter rubbish that tells users -- including myself -- to f*** off with broken layouts and violations of accessibility norms. All that does is exploit the suckers who don't know any better.

    I'd be a LOT more open to bootstrap if the people who CREATED IT, those creating the example templates, and those claiming to be professionals whilst using it had ANY damned clue what they were doing. When you don't know enough HTML or CSS to use either properly, you should NOT be coding official examples of anything for beginners to blindly copy. Especially when the result -- as I've said and will keep saying -- costs more to host, is harder to maintain, harder to customize, and tells many visitors to f*** off.

    Quality examples, using HTML and CSS properly following the rules of the languages and the grammatical/structural norms on which they were based, should be easier to create, easier for customization, and no more or less work for the ignorant to copypasta... WITHOUT telling visitors to the resultant websites (like myself) to f*** off. ALL whilst providing the very thing you're using as a counterpoint!

    Or are you convinced that such a thing CANNOT be done within the "limitations" of using HTML and CSS properly?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 14, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #42
    That's not the point. The point is Bootstrap has these components already designed saving you time spent on styling and designing components.
     
    NetStar, Jul 14, 2019 IP
  3. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #43
    You know, @NetStar, I'm really trying to figure out if you're trolling at this point.

    That or we have two entirely different understandings of the English language. We're THAT far apart on interpreting what each-other are saying.

    you're arguing a point I huffing conceded, yes it already has them. WHY can't the same thing be built WITHOUT the endless bad practices, gibberish markup, and accessibility "F*** you" that is bootcrap?

    I've gone from arguing that it's full of lies and utter crap, to wondering if the ONLY valid points you made could be redone WITHOUT it making the entire thing SIMPLER... and you still seem to be saying nothing more than "but but but, itz teh goods".

    It's shit, why can't we do better within the existing specifications? Or even better make a better specification? Create a new quality documentation based on good practices, separation of presentation from content, etc, etc. Provide a repository (the documentation should link to) filled with example pages of how things should be done "properly" that people can cut/paste just like they blindly do with bootcrap? Again, a question you ignore and refuse to answer, whilst spouting more glittering generalities and "wah, is not".

    The end result making life better and easier for everyone? I'm TALKING ABOUT BUILDING those huffing components for the simpletons to blindly copy the same way they blindly copy bootcrap FFS! Just without the garbage that makes it such a PITA for actual professionals, people who don't want the cookie cutter, and the things that -- AGAIN -- tell large swaths of users to F*** off.

    It really feels like you're defending it for the sake of defending it, and consider the idea of any alternative to be "wrong". Even one that could provide all the things you keep claiming!

    Though maybe as @Gary-SC observed, like many others you really don't give a shit about anything other than the status quo; right or wrong, simple or hard. Seems to be why you seem to keep saying so many important things "don't matter" and have an almost criminally fraudulent attitude on the topic.

    Exactly like those I've spent the past ten years bailing out of messes created by this crap... such as thousand dollar a day fines.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 14, 2019 IP
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  4. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Prominent Member

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    #44
    BINGO!....please cash in your card.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Jul 14, 2019 IP
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  5. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #45
    @deathshadow pick a huffing name already!! LOL

    I'm sure I'm not qualified to even help with peer reviewing, but at least keep us posted here or in https://cutcodedown.com/ about it. =D

    @NetStar I am very much interested to see you show us what "I have never used bootstrap on any of my sites" looks like.
     
    pxgfx, Jul 14, 2019 IP
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  6. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #46
    Nope. I cast an opinion that differs from yours and you go off on a rant. In fact, (yes FACT) I stated Bootstrap has it's components already designed and styled and that IS why Bootstrap is considered easier and quicker for a designer and you will go off on some weird rant full of biased ignorance. Heck...most of your post has nothing to do with the topic. Not trolling. Stating an opinion... well actually facts haha..
     
    NetStar, Jul 15, 2019 IP
  7. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #47
    Like any other web site that doesn't use bootstrap: Proper CSS and semantic HTML. The the only way I prefer to design MY web sites. However, if I was employed by a company who needed it done in Bootstrap I would have no problem doing it as I understand it's purpose and their purpose. In business time is everything in regards to taking a project from development to production. Generally it's way more valuable to sacrifice some unrecognized performance to get your product in front of paying customers faster.

    CutCodeDown.com? lol. Is this @deathshadow 's web site? hehe
     
    NetStar, Jul 15, 2019 IP
  8. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #48
    Oh @NetStar, just keep digging.

    ... by again refusing to answer a question, or accept burden of proof.

    Yes, that's my site, that comment was directed at me in regards to my new "project".

    Let's see one of yours! You talk the talk, let's see some walking! BUT just like every time something like this comes up, bet you won't... but sure, we're the ones to "don't work in the real world".

    Since as a few people here know, this wouldn't be the first time you make claims, but refuse to show work or provide evidence to back it up. You either disappear without answering, try to pass off glittering generalities as "facts", or simply go "wah wah, is not".

    Which is why any respect I had for you -- which I did have years ago -- has been eroded to nothing.

    I mean, I get it for "work work" -- my big clients don't like having the fact they were in legal trouble advertised -- but surely you have SOMETHING you could show. I'm quite curious what your idea of a vanilla site's code would be, since again, to be brutally frank, the things you've said make me question if you even know enough HTML or CSS to make the claims you do; as they are consistent with the claims made by people I already know aren't qualified to write a single blasted line of either.

    @pxgfx, get ready for more shuffling of feet and non-answers. This isn't the first rodeo on this one. As you can see, once again @NetStar didn't actually "answer the question" by providing what you actually asked for. Instead you got the stock response out of the "Complete Beginners Guide to Sounding Good Without Any Facts".

    Again, part of what makes dealing with those who keep making these lame excuses for broken, garbage, useless techniques whilst preying on the ignorance of others even more aggravating than the complete lack of empathy, ethics, morals, or decency their "answers" imply. Hence what makes these "frameworks" and those who will BOHICA for the almighty dollar all seem so rabidly sociopathic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
    deathshadow, Jul 15, 2019 IP
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  9. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Prominent Member

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    #49
    Damned if you didn't read my mind on that one. Second BINGO! card....please cash in.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Jul 16, 2019 IP
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  10. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #50
    You did not state a FACT as 'considered' is an OPINION not a fact.
     
    mmerlinn, Jul 17, 2019 IP
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  11. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #51
    The fact would be that the components are already designed and styled. Therefor you do NOT have to style or think about designing components. Fact is it speeds things up as you do NOT have to design the components. That's a fact since Bootstrap has ALL components designed and styled. Hence the purpose of bootstrap. This is a fact.
     
    NetStar, Jul 18, 2019 IP
  12. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #52
    How funny, you guys have been talking on this thread. I've just been busy working and learning. I just saw all these replies.

    Since my last post, I found out that the pro web dev dude went around my back and tried to convince my boss that my boss would be better off paying him to build a website. My boss told me that he wanted to give him a try and maybe have me work on another one in the future. I didn't like the idea, but I obliged. He is the boss after all, so whatever.

    The pro dude invoiced him $1,500 for a five-page static website and came up with a prototype within a couple of days. He said that the thing was already pretty close to be final and that we should be ready to load it up with our contents. It impressed my boss, and he showed it to me. But amusingly, I quickly recognized the look of it, because, well, guess what, it was a slightly modified pre-made template that came with Pingendo Bootstrap builder app. I showed him exactly how the pro dude did it using Pingendo right in front of my boss in less than ten minutes, and I even explained to my boss about all sorts of basic mistakes he made along the way such as how he didn't even get his <h> tag usage right. Not only that, I ended up getting HIM to do the same thing using Pingendo app in a few minutes as well.

    Saying that it infuriated my boss is an understatement. He couldn't believe someone just tried to charge him $1,500 for this drag-and-drop bull$hit that he could do it himself in no time.

    The follow-up meeting was epic. It went like this:

    Boss: "So... you are asking $1,500 for this. I discovered that you used an app called Pingendo to put together this prototype in two days and guess what, I did the same thing myself in ten minutes after Gary showed me how. I have to say I'm appalled... You didn't even bother changing anything beyond dummy images and changing some spacing. What makes you think you deserve to get paid $1,500 for doing nothing?"

    The pro dude: "You don't understand. The price includes a lot of customization by hand-coding, implementing some SEO techniques and giving you some content advice."

    What a flippin' liar. I knew he didn't code anything by hand, and I knew he was bull$h*tting about everything else. So, I asked him to change a few things in the way that I knew was likely outside what Pingendo allowed him to change via GUI. To my amusement, he couldn't do it. He kept telling us how developers always used frameworks, referred to online documentation and how it was a waste of time to memorize every Bootstrap class names and write responsive columns from scratch.

    I was so annoyed that I spent the next few minutes writing a quick mockup layout from scratch right on the spot using CSS Flexbox and writing some Flex ordering tricks to demonstrate how I could move columns and rows around, all without looking up anything, just to make my point and annoy him. I practiced a few patterns of "holy grail layouts" so much by now that I could do all of that with my eyes closed. I then started adding my own rows and columns to his Bootstrap prototype, applying Flex order to shift things around, and so on, all on my boss's laptop, right in front of them. That pretty much shut the guy down in embarrassment. My boss said in the end, "Well, my staff can surely do what you do. Heck, he can at least copy and paste for that matter. You can cancel your invoice now."

    Honestly, I didn't expect the whole saga to turn out quite like this, but I admit I felt so much better afterward. All those verbal abuses he crapped on me was worth the perseverance after all. Karma is a b***h. :-D
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 18, 2019 IP
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  13. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #53
    kk5st, Jul 19, 2019 IP
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  14. pxgfx

    pxgfx Active Member

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    #54
    Did you not read @deathshadow 's post/ssssss? How can you not see how these "benefits" you get from bootstrap can't even be compared with the benefits that you can get just by simply embracing the fact that WE are supposed to / need to act as real designers/developers/engineers. That there are more important things to consider when tackling the web more than just paying clients? That there are also people who are blind, deaf and differently abled? That you will grow old too? That we should also respect the users by not sending them endless inaccessible bloat and crappy work every time?

    I can't think of anyone better than @deathshadow who can explain the way he did in so much detail HOW and WHY bootstrap isn't really helping those people who fall into the trap of using it -- specially in the long term.

    Okay. You proved your point. We get it now how people are lured into using bootstrap because it has "those things" you mentioned ... those things that are actually very easy to replicate and do (but without the bloat and using proper and very minimal markup which is easier to work with and maintain) if one would just spend enough time learning and using HTML/CSS properly instead of depending on bootstrap.

    I feel like we all have tried our best here to explain to you why we should really stop using and advocating the use of it ... but until now you're still all about winning an argument.

    @Gary-SC

    NICE!!! LOL That's epic!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    pxgfx, Jul 19, 2019 IP
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  15. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #55
    The consultant did not go behind your back because in your original post you clearly stated your boss consulted with him because he is a web developer.... you are not by trade.

    In your original post you clearly stated the consultant told your boss about bootstrap and Pingendo and your boss told you to follow his direction. Your boss would NOT be pissed off that Bootstrap and Pingendo was used as clearly stated upfront.

    Your perception is skewed.

    False. Conversation could have never happened. According to you your boss knew about Bootstrap and Pingendo because the consultant recommended those tools.

    The rest of this is all fantasy. It makes for a great story though. Your boss wouldn't have shitted his panted for spending $1,500 to get a website in Bootstrap/Pingendo when the consultant told him it would be in Bootstrap using Pingendo. Your boss also is smart enough to realize $1,500 for a finished project is cheaper and quicker than waiting for you to learn how to code and produce something in a longer time frame.

    This is what actually happened: You were pulled from the project. The web developer finished using the exact products as promised. You did not like it and complained about it. And your boss told you to go back to work.
     
    NetStar, Jul 19, 2019 IP
  16. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #56
    That's not being discussed or argued. The statement is Bootstrap already has built in components that are designed for you and that is why people find it easier (because they don't need to spend a second designing components). I am not rebutting client needs or best practices. You are adding that which is not the point that I made.
     
    NetStar, Jul 19, 2019 IP
  17. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #57
    I just realized that I posted my update in the wrong thread. Sorry about that, but I guess I will just post here now as a few people replied here.

    @NetStar

    He consulted with him because he claimed to be a web developer AND he was someone my boss knew through some friends. My boss wanted me to be his in-house web guy, and he brought the guy in the mix, thinking he could help me learn. The guy was never "hired" to do the actual work before this. The guy probably figured he would be better off making easy bucks since we didn't get along at all.

    My boss never saw what I could do vs. how he actually did it until the follow-up meeting and most likely thought it was a mix of personal conflict (verbal abuse) and my strong-will tendency in general at first. That's probably why my boss urged me to keep going with this guy. He heard me out more in details later in our private meeting but a lot of that was about his verbal abuse, and having heard of his approach only via verbal explanations I don't think he grasped the reality of what was going on until I actually showed him in action and have him do it himself. He went wishy-washy on me later on despite my previous discussions, and that's why I obliged thinking, "whatever."

    So, yeah, nice try, but you are in denial because you don't like what people in this thread have to say about Bootstrap.

    The web guy never told my boss he would put together the entire thing in Bootstrap using Pingendo builder when he made an offer. As a matter of fact, I asked my boss about it again, and he said that he would build a "custom site" without telling him many details. F***in' liar, there is nothing "custom" about what he did in his prototype. It's more like tweaking.

    Troll.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 19, 2019 IP
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  18. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #58
    No, my boss is smart enough to realize it is not worth paying $1,500 for something that he could do it himself without knowing much about website design. Bootstrap is EASY. Using a pre-made template is even EASIER. That, if you don't give a rats a$$ what it is. Nothing worth paying for in that case.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jul 19, 2019 IP
  19. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Prominent Member

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    #59
    There are a lot of people like me who are technically challenged. I would like to thank all of the participants of this thread. I have learned more about Bootstrap (both the pros and cons) than I could ever have imagined I would from a solitary thread. Thanks to everyone involved.:)
     
    Spoiltdiva, Jul 19, 2019 IP
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  20. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #60
    Bingo!

    And that's where bootcrap, pineblow, and other such frameworks/pre-processors/tools go from being a toy for beginners, to an outright scam. When these clowns do NOTHING but flip existing code and design -- the very thing @NetStar holds up as a "feature" -- and try to say they put massive amounts of time worth 30 Benjamins for something a rank amateur should be able to slop together in an hour after maybe 20 minutes instruction.

    ... and in any other field, such practices would be labeled as plagiarism; dishonest if not outright sleazy!

    The really sad part being I bet you dimes to dollars this clown was NOT lying about the time / effort spent on "includes a lot of customization by hand-coding" because again -- if he's using those tools by choice, he doesn't know enough HTML or CSS to be working on websites. His CLAIMS of being a professional being utterly gutted by his choice of tools, and likely the quality (or lack therin) of the result. He likely wasted hours in "deep thought" and "research" all due to a lack of the fundamental understanding needed to do the job.

    I mean FFS, 30 BJ's for five static pages slopped together with amateur tools? Yet people STILL will defend that as acceptable because they themselves basically run the exact same SCAM. That's why certain folks will come up with almost ANY excuse to defend it... and that's ALL any of the arguments in favor of these systems are, LAME EXCUSES.

    How were his semantics? I mean, he talked about "implementing some SEO techniques" given he was using bootcrap and something stupid like pinegro, he was likely either going in and wasting time rewriting the markup of what he cut/paste -- at which point just write it properly in the first damned place -- or worse throwing some kind of black-hat BS or pointless extra bloat at it. See the derps who claim Aria roles helps search, or how people blindly stuff things into the keywords META and content even if it has zero relevance to the topic.

    Again, take this clown I knew a decade or so ago who claimed to be the ultimate SEO "expert", when pages he optimized certainly did rank #1 for certain search terms. Too bad those terms had dick-all to do with the product. One particular case he was optimizing for a Photoshop plugin, and listed out all these terms they ranked #1 for... but it meant nothing since the terms had zero relevance to what the product actually did, and the "competing" listings on the SERPS were for automotive engine powder coating. Any idiot can rank well against "non-competitors". It's something that in marketing is actually called "non-competing competitors" and is a known way to card-stack advertising claims.

    Dimes to dollars, this guys "SEO" and "content advice" was likely similar in both language and intent.

    There are a lot of ignorant, delusional, and outright scam artist folks out there CLAIMING to be professionals, but as I've said and you mentioned, these people don't know enough about HTML or CSS to use that title. They know these frameworks and little else. As such they think that "grid of 12" nonsense is the only way to measure columns. They think they need this massive list of classes they have to constantly look up somehow is better than a massive list of properties you have to look up. They cannot grasp the reason for -- or even see the benefits of -- separation of presentation from content.

    Worse, they don't understand that semantic markup exists to create those "patterns" they so blindly copy. If you leverage semantics and the cascading part of CSS most of those "patterns" and "structures" already exist within the rules of HTML/CSS, and end up no more work than what they do by shitting endless pointless idiotic halfwitted dumbass classes into the HTML.

    Much less that they are thinking "visually first" which is for all intents and purposes putting the cart before the horse. Well written markup should in most cases require little to no modification whilst allowing you hundreds of different appearances. That's why you say what things ARE, and NOT what you want them to look like in the HTML. The moment you do something like:

    
        <div class="d-flex flex-column flex-md-row align-items-center p-3 px-md-4 mb-3 bg-white border-bottom box-shadow">
          <h5 class="my-0 mr-md-auto font-weight-normal">Company name</h5>
    
    Code (markup):
    You have utterly, thoroughly, and completely screwed the pooch. ANY pretense of your being a "professional" erased by such ignorance and stupidity. ESPECIALLY when at least two of those classes aren't even part of bootstrap, whilst coming from a page showing off how "powerful" bootstrap is.

    Really stupid for what should likely be more along the lines of:

    
    <div id="top">
      <h1>Company Name</h1>
    
    Code (markup):
    Even dumber when there's NOTHING in that outer div warranting the use of flex-box. Float the H1, text-align the outer container right, inline-block the menu. DONE. That's how stupid it is.

    The MOMENT you see a class like bg-white, text-shadow, box-shadow, border-bottom, you're dealing with someone who really has ZERO business writing a single damned line of HTML or CSS. Hence, the people who CREATED and MAINTAIN bootstrap are unqualified to have created the system in the first huffing place.

    Is it any wonder when bootstrap's CREATORS are unqualified to work with HTML or CSS, that the people who get suckered into using it are no better?

    But of course, the rank and file "don't care" or more specifically "don't know any better" which is why these scam-artist know-nothings are so readily able to prey upon them. CLAIMING to be professionals when they are pro's at only one thing: running a hustle. Somebody call the bunco squad!

    It was 3:57 PM when we got the call. Another confidence man was peddling shoddy flips of poorly written code as if it were his own work, charging thousands. The watch Sergeant had passed it up to Captain Morris of the bunco squad who immediately ordered us into the field. My partner's name is Bill Gannon. My name's Friday. I carry a badge.

    Dah, da dunt dunt!

    Seriously, these types of "professionals" pulled this type of stunt in ANY other industry, it would qualify as FRAUD! Well, excepting perhaps politics and religion, where then it's "business as usual". In fact, in some industries -- banking, utilities, medical, government -- websites of this nature can in fact BE fraud. I've been witness for the prosecution enough times to know that.

    But still, you have all these people who see nothing wrong with it, defending the indefensible tooth an nail. Making bullshit claims about how "all professionals use frameworks" because all they've ever known is scam artist dirtbags as untrustworthy and dishonest as themselves.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 20, 2019 IP
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