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# how many inbound links from 9 PR sites does it take to shift PR from zero to one?

Discussion in 'Google Sitemaps' started by outprize.com, Oct 3, 2006.

1. #1
Inbound links from directory sites if I understand PR model correctly offer little contribution to one's PR due to the immense number of outbound links on their pages which dilutes the value of their high PR. If I was to obtain inbound links from high PR directory sites assuming a meager 100 outbound links each, it would take 10 inbound links from 9 PR sites to shift PR by 1 whole number using a simplified formula:

PR = (1-0.85) + 0.85 *summation of ( PR of linking site/no. outbound links on linking site ..........)

So realistically, how many inbound links from say 9 PR sites does it take to shift PR from zero to one

Oct 3, 2006 IP
2. ### telephonePeon

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#2
good question!

anyone? ...anyone? <hearing echo>

Oct 3, 2006 IP
3. ### MattUKNotable Member

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#3
Bear in mind the the actual damping factor isn't known to be 0.85, that's a guess.

Oct 4, 2006 IP
4. ### BlogspotterNotable Member

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#4
Shifting from 0 to 3 is much easier than shifting from 5 to 6.

BTW with 10 inbound links from 9 PR sites will give you a PR of 6 easily...if you can harvest some other PR3,4,5 links

Oct 4, 2006 IP
5. ### AngelusWell-Known Member

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#5
I think that he means 10 links from webs that do have a pr, not 10 links from pr9 sites

p.l.u.r.

Oct 4, 2006 IP
6. ### ! Ask !Peon

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#6
1 good link from a pr5 page could give you pr2 no need for pr9 links

Oct 4, 2006 IP
7. ### outprize.comGuest

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#7
ok then how come outprize.com has a google PR of zero when you can see backlink counts of 40/yahoo, 5/google, 10/msn ?

Oct 5, 2006 IP
8. ### MattUKNotable Member

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#8
Because they probably built those links before Google captured their PR data. The update was less than a week ago but the dat of capture was 6-8 weeks before that. I have a site with 2000+ backlinks but still has a PR0 as they were built after the capture date.

Oct 5, 2006 IP
9. ### minnseoelitePeon

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#9
It all depends on the PR of the page your link is on not the PR of the site itself, it also depends on how many other links are on the page not just outbound links but links to other pages on the site as well.

Oct 5, 2006 IP
10. ### myspacelayouts26Peon

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#10
And don't forget it is all a mystery, wait and see, never know what you are going to get, game.

Oct 5, 2006 IP
11. ### woodridgePeon

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#11
My recent experience makes me doubt if PR is solely based on backlinks. I just launched a unique article directory: www.BestManagementArticles.com. Its an article submission site that's exclusively for business and management topics.

Within 2 weeks from launching (Aug. 30, 2006), it already attained a PR1 rating; and I haven't done any linking strategy at that point. A totally welcome surprise to me, of course.

The only way I could think why it happened that way is that I registered the domain name URL with google about 2 months before the launch, while we were still developing the site. Sure, it doesn't make so much sense but really, I can't think of any other possible reason.

Ismael

Oct 5, 2006 IP
12. ### MattUKNotable Member

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#12
Oct 6, 2006 IP
13. ### MaxPowersPeon

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#13
PR is simply links. How many in, how many out, and the 'link value' of the page they're on. How many PR9 links to take you to PR1? How long is a rope?

Although PR is probably the easiest calculation to understand, there are several variables to it. How many outbound links on the PR9 that's linking to you? And more importantly, what is their real PR? Although the toolbar sets them at 9, their actual value MAY BE 520,345,872 (probably much higher). If this were the case, lets play with some numbers...

PR10 = 5,000,000,000
PR9 = 500,000,000+
PR8 = 50,000,000+
PR7 = 5,000,000+
PR6 = 500,000+
PR5 = 50,000+
PR4 = 5,000+
PR3 = 500+
PR2 = 50+
PR1 = 5+
PR0 = <5

None of the numbers above are likely accurate, but this is a very similar structure to what Google uses from my understanding. One of the biggest difficulties in answering how many PR9's to make a PR1 is knowing exactly what the values above are.

What the values above show is that it is 'logarithmically' more difficult to obtain the next level PR above the one you're on, and it shows that toolbar PR and 'actual' PR are two different scores. What it doesn't do a very good job of showing is that the top score on this scale will change according to the score that whoever is on top gets. Whatever the top score on the internet is, that's a PR10, and everything else fits in somewhere below that... like being graded on a curve.

It may be important to note that the PR calculation breaks horribly if links that are 404'ed get involved. This is because the vote to that page depletes the pool, but that page does not officially exist and cannot be used when averaging amongst all pages involved. My point is that this would be a big part of the reason why Google dislikes 404's and certainly offers a good place for them to record penalties against sites that have pages that have broken links. Is this how it's really done? I dunno. But I know that in playing with the PR calculations, I couldn't get an accurate count if I included links that went 'nowhere'. While there are better places to sort out 404 links, the PR calculation does not add up if they are included.

PS- Since the actual scale in Google databanks is secret, the damper effect is almost a moot point as long as it is between 0 and 1. A lower damper means a higher max score as there is more available PR to distribute between the pages. Different dampers still result in the average score of pages at 1.0 for each page involved in the equation. Even though the raw PR would swing to higher highs and lower lows, the 11-step 'toolbar' scale (PR0-PR10) would still equalize the toolbar PR into 11 segments of pages. The score at which each level went up would change to match what we see now.

Oct 7, 2006 IP
Scriptona likes this.
14. ### TanMonkeyGuest

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#14
It completely depends on the linking sites. If there are lots of outbound links on the sites and / or if Google has flagged them as selling links (essentially selling pagerank) that can discount and even neutralize any benefit you'd get from the links. Most people who don't frequent DP would tell you to only buy text links for the traffic. If there and PR beneift then its a bonus.

Oct 9, 2006 IP
15. ### b-directoryPeon

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#15
We can all estimate, but there is no hard and fast rule. In fact, it seems just as we get to grips with one rule, google change it all

The best method is to try not to worry too much about getting PR and more about getting quality links that lead to conversions - afterall, if you have a PR of 10 and no one buys from you, whats the point?

Oct 9, 2006 IP
16. ### ScriptonaNotable Member

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#16
thanks alot for these info

Oct 13, 2006 IP
17. ### MorishaniPeon

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#17
MaxPowers - Thank for the info man.

Oct 14, 2006 IP
18. ### anielsenPeon

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#18
Here's the original article by Google founders explaining the idea of Google PR (you'll need to copy and paste into your browser as I am not yet allowed to post live links):

It's not too easy to read, so here's an article I wrote a few months back:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Google Page Rank Explained

by Andrew Nielsen

One of the criteria used by Google when displaying search results is the Page Rank (PR). The higher the PR, the higher a page will be shown in search results. In this article we explain how Google calculates he PR and how you can optimize your website for achieving a high PR. Google also uses factors like relevance for the search â€“ this is not discussed in this article.

This article is based mainly on an original article by Google founders Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page but also on hearsay, speculation and rumours. Google is not interested in allowing the public to know exactly how the PR is calculated since it is then easier to trick or cheat the search engine and since this would undermine its credibility. It does however appear that a variation over the basic formula is still used.

Google assigns a PR of between 0 and 10 to all pages which it indexes. It is possible to install a Google toolbar which shows the PR when you visit a page. The toolbar can be downloaded from toolbar(dot)google(dot)com.

In reality, the PR is a value between 0 and â€˜a very large numberâ€™. A logarithmic scale is most likely used to translate the value into the PR we know. A logarithmic scale works so values may be translated as follows:

Values 0.1 to 1 results in PR 0
Values 1 to 10 results in PR 1
Values 10 to 100 results in PR 2
Values 100 to 1000 results in PR 3 etc

What weâ€™ll look at in this article is how the value is determined. The actually scale used is not important to understand the concepts and it is not known to the public. It is likely that the scale is changed regularly.

Before looking at the actual formula â€“ which may seem a bit scary - weâ€™ll discuss the basic idea by which the founders of Google wished to set importance â€“ expressed in PR - to webpages.

The basic idea is that a link from a page A to a page B indicates that page A casts a â€˜voteâ€™ for page B. The link from page A to B indicates that page B has something important on it which means that page A endorses page B. The basic idea of Google PR is that the more votes a page have, the higher the PR it should get. There are however different weights assigned to the votes cast. A vote from a page with a low PR is less important than a vote from a page with a high PR and therefore has less weight. If a page A casts many votes to many pages by having links to a number of pages, then the vote of page A is divided into small parts and each part is then assigned as a vote to each of the pages which page A links to. As you may have deduced from this explanation, the PR then expresses â€“ to some extent - the likelihood that someone surfing randomly on the web will end up on the given page. A probability is therefore expressed in the PR.

Before looking at how this works out, weâ€™ll look at the exact formula used. You need not understand the formula as long as you understand the basic idea, but we will add it here for completeness. Weâ€™ll look at what the basic idea and what the formula means in terms of getting a high PR a bit further down.

The basic formula is the following, where A is the page we wish to find the PR for and pages T1 to Tn are the pages linking to page A:

PR(A) = (1-d) + d (PR(T1)/C(T1) + PR(T2)/C(T2) + ... + PR(Tn)/C(Tn))

Where:
1) PR(A) means the PR of page A. Subsequently, PR(T1) means the PR of page T1
2) C(T1) is the number (count) of links going out of page T1.
3) PR(T1)/C(T1) â€“ it follows from 1) and 2) that this is the page rank of the page T1 divided by the number of outgoing links from page T1. In other words, PR(T1)/C(T1) expresses the part of the vote of page T1 that is awarded to page A.
4) d is a damping factor which is probably set to around 0.80 to 0.85. We will not look into details as to why this factor is needed, but just state here that it has to do with probability distribution.

You may want to make a few examples and youâ€™ll see how it works out.

If you are bright, you may have noticed that you need to know the PR for all the pages linking to page A in order to work out the PR for page A. This may however not be possible as some of the pages are new and were never indexed before by Google. For this reason, Google assigns an initial value to all pages and after a few iterations where the PR is recalculated, an appropriate value is determined.

From the description of the basic idea and the formula we are now able to look at the factors which result in a high PR and thus give guidelines for achieving this.

The more webpages linking to your website the more votes will be cast upon your website, so the higher PR you will get. Links from pages which a high PR and with few outgoing links count higher than other links. How to achieve this is the subject of many articles on their own and we will not dwell into this further here.

Note that Google may penalise a website which tries to achieve a higher PR by what Google considers an inappropriate means. If for example you purchase links from a link exchange provider, Google may see this as a form of spamming and reduce your PR as a result. Playing fair seems to be safer than trying to â€˜cheatâ€™.

In this article we have discussed how the Google page rank is calculated and what you can do to increase your page rank. Equipped with this information you may be able to improve your presence in search results.

Good luck.

Andrew

Oct 24, 2006 IP
19. ### mefistoPeon

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#19
I can't agree with the "calculation" of some people here. Link popularity has little to do with PR. I have a number of PR4 websites that have not more than 300 backlinks. And I have a PR2 website that has zero backlinks. And now even better I have a PR0 website that has roughly 5000 backlinks, not that the value of each backlink is high but surely this proves your theory that links PR with link popularity wrong doesn't it ?

Any one looking for PR up to PR4. I offer a PR building service at reasonable pricing. Within 1 Google update cycle I will build your PR from 0 - 3 min. and max. possible is PR4.

Contact me if you need such service.

Jan 29, 2008 IP

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