An argument often used by the religious in supports of the existence of a god is the complexity of biology. "the cell", they say, "is so complex with so many individual functions that it had to have been designed by god". But why would god, a supposedly all powerful entity, have to make something complex for it to work? It would be far more compelling evidence if the cell, or even the human body, was full of jello. God could do that, couldn't he? Even if we ignore the superfluous aspects of biology like vestigial limbs, redundant DNA and flaws, such as the optic nerve passing in front of the retina, complexity is, when you actually think about it, a far more compelling argument against the existence of a designer than it is for it. There is simply no need to a god to make something complex. tl;dr - If god made us why are we complex and not just full of jello?
perhaps God knows the formula for life that consists of these complexities. some can say that it was too difficult for evolution to come up with what we are now and that their was a designer that created life.
God would have invented the formular too, wouldn't he? This is the point; If it's made by god it doesn't need to be complex. We could be full of jello and just animated in to existence. So why make something needlessly complex?
Since you have the study of biology to draw from why not include your make up of the Spirit that guides each creature individually that is the reason for the biology and why it even exists. There is nothing the same in the Garden and not everything is flawless or in fact seldom perfect, seems not to deviate life as a uniform gift irregardless the circumstances. How many Gardens are you drawing your conclusions from - what is specific in this Garden may not be the same for others, quite possibly may be the answer to your question. What specifically about the facts implies the perfection of the Outerworld of the Everlasting is any different or that it matters?
Well, the argument would be that it is complex for me and you , but not for the GOD. That's what the theists will say.
Perhaps you wouldn't function as well? Why do you want to be a Jello? Muscle and bones is what maintains your structure integrity unless you want to be used as a water mattress. If you actually study the intracellular body functions and how cells communicate and interact with each other, you'll understand that there must be a creator behind such complex system that occurs in a timely fashioned manner. A spaceship is complicated enough but it doesn't create itself from scratch. Why is it so hard to believe there is a creator out there for the much more complex biological organisms? I agree
It could be less complex. A lot less complex of god done it. That's probably the worse excuse yet. Are you saying god has cells prone to cancer? Vestigial components? An optic nerve that passes in front of his retina? No? Then we aren't made in his image. End of. Why wouldn't we function as well? Remember, your god can supposedly do anything. You are just restating what i already said you would say like some kind of obedient parrot. Stop telling me that complexity is evidence for god and explain why, if god is all powerful, he would need to make something complex for it to work. So far you guys are just taking pot shots in the hope that one of your excuses will stick. have a think about it, why would something created by god need to be complex and, in light of that question, how is the fact that it is complex evidence for a god?
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Because it is His will Complexity is an argument showing that human knowledge is limited and that we should focus on developing a better world rather then dedicating our time to preach our system of beliefs . When science will be advanced enough to explain exhaustively some parts of our universe which we know consider secrets maybe then the God debate will have some sense . Anyway that's just my opinion .
How about this. God made us complex as a sense of appreciation to show us that he loves us and actually spent time to create such a complex form. God created the world in 6 days and he rested the next day. Does that mean God needs to take a rest from his hard work? Of course not. God could have created everything in one day but again he took a rest to teach us a way of thinking, that we also need to rest from our daily tasks and to also tell us something about him- that he works in order. If he just made us a simple jell form like you say, wouldn't that also reflect the characteristics and mentality of God? That God is lazy, simple and does not put much effort into creating life that would sustain for thousands of years? Compare it to an aspiring artist making a very expensive painting. He could make a nice one in 2 hours but he could also make a magnificent detailed piece that could take him years. The latter shows much he cares about the painting and also reflects the sort of character the painter is. Now, I hope this clears up that "God is complex" and God is loving. Remember, God does not need us. God created us out of love because without God, we wouldn't exist in the first place. Scientifically speaking, since we are living in a universe that obeys physical and chemical laws, our bodies must accept and have features that enables it to adapt to this universe.
^^ Dude you are a laughing stock right now. Read your post again Yeaahhh Suuuureee.. [video=youtube;urlTBBKTO68]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68[/video]
If that was his goal he would have been better off making us out of something simple. Ideally something which doesn't get cancer. I had actually expected decent answers to this, you know, something thought provoking, but now i'm actually feeling sorry for you having to invent these contrived excuses and rationalizations. The argument that he "spent time" making us falls flat because to an omnipotent being creating something which is perceived by us to be complex is no harder than creating something simple. Why? Because god can do anything. The argument that we have to function according to the laws of the universe also falls flat. Why? Because god can do anything. He could have made us exempt from the laws. Isn't it tragic that in your attempt to rationalise this you have to impose limitations on your god? In a few more posts you will be in the position on describing him as some kind of flaccid, incompetent imbecile who can't actually do anything. Why don't you approach this from the other direction, you know, thinking about it then forming your conclusion instead of having the conclusion and then defending it by inventing all these contrived excuses. If you was honest you'd admit that it makes no sense at all. It makes no sense for a being which can supposedly do anything to create something complex. Not only does it make no sense, but the complexity is actually an argument against the existence of an all powerful god as complexity is not required.
Why do you think that? Do you think its too hard for God to keep track of our complex mechanisms? And something that can withstand bullets or avoids getting hit by a car? The problem here is you do not have a sufficient scientific background to fully understand what is actually going in your body. The thousands of different defensive mechanisms occurring at this moment to defend your body from invasive organisms, viruses, bacteria and cancer. Again, if you ask why should we be complex? I made my point very clearly above. Why? Then we would not be suitable to live on earth. What limitations did I impose? If that is your mentality, then you'll never comprehend. I did not make an excuse but provided an explanation to your question. Your excuse is that we need to be more simpler but the ironic thing is that you do not understand your body well enough to make such forthright statement.
No, only that complexity is surplus to requirements. What part of that do you not understand? I know why we are complex. It's because we evolved. My question isn't why are we complex, it's "if god can do anything why would he make something needlessly complex". Again, what part of this are you having difficulty understanding? We would if god deemed it so. God can do anything, right? What part of this are you having trouble grasping? The limitation that whatever god creates have to abide by the laws of physics, the laws he created. The limitation that god had to make it complex to survive on earth, even though he created the conditions and can do anything. Need any more? Sorry, you don't get to claim it has to be this way if you are also positing an entity which can do anything. YOUR GOD CAN SUPPOSEDLY DO ANYTHING, THESE LIMITATIONS DON'T APPLY. lol you provided numerous excuses. As one is debunked, you invented another. If you don't have enough respect for us to say something and stick to it at least try to muster enough respect for yourself. What you have provided so far has been frankly humiliating for you. Again; How is complexity evidence for a god who could supposedly have made us out of anything?
I know this was your main question but that was not what our previous argument was about so do not try to impose a different route now. I was discussing why God made us complex and NOT why complexity is evidence for God. At this level, you'll never be able to relate the complexity with the presence of God and most Atheists are likely not to because you need to have the basic understanding/characteristic of God's creation starting from Genesis. I hope this clears up the confusion. Really? And who/what did we evolve from? and where did that come from in the first place? So I would expect a tree to evolve into a flying object after 4000 years? Does that mean the human generation started with jelly like structure and now we have developed into this fully functional organism and we are likely to get wings after a couple of thousand years? Evolution doesn't necessarily mean complexity. Yes, God could do anything but this can also leads to many questions. Why humans don't have wings? Why do we need to eat? why isn't the earth flat? Why do we need a sun for thermal heat ? etc.. you see where I am getting at here? Its up to God to choose his own design that he created and we shall live by the rules of that design because after all we are products of the same creator. The universe works perfectly fine so why are you asking unnecessary questions? See above. We live by those limitations and were made for us, not God.
that's the way God wanted it. complex beings able to form thoughts and opinions. Complex beings that function the way they do. perhaps God was bored with simple creations and made us complex. we don't know if God's desires can be quantified by human knowledge.
That isn't the topic of the thread. The topic is, specifically, "how is complexity evidence for god". Oh look, it's the stupidest thing anybody has ever said. No i don't see what you are getting at. If he can do all of those things why would he needlessly make it more complex than is required. Why DO we need heat. Why DO we need to eat. These are questions that you need to answer when positing that we were designed by an entity which CAN DO ANYTHING. The question is as fundamental as asking why someone would circumnavigate the earth to go to the shops when they could have just walked to the end of their road. The point being, it;s needless complexity. If god can do anything, why make it needlessly complex, and, how is complexity evidence for god. But limitations which you claim is subject to. As far as pathetic cop-outs go, that has to be the most pathetic. Seriously, you have just given up even trying to think with that one. At least Luke is having a go, Albeit a futile go, but he's trying to reconcile the claim that an all powerful god would a) make something complex when he doesn't have to and b) be limited by the very laws he invented. It was inevitable that this fatuous excuse would raise it's head eventually. It always does when the religious have no answer.