Its always interesting to know the history of things...i cant understand how people could continue in this teaching knowing that it is not the truth. I have always thought that the concept of the trinity made the three involved very impersonal. It loses that wonderful feeling of approach that you can feel when you think of the creator as your father and Jesus as your friend and brother. They are all 'one' in there purpose for creation but they need to be seen and loved for their individual qualities. Jesus himself made that quite clear. John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Why is the translation and pronunciation of Jesus' name readily excepted but Gods name Jehovah isnt?....food for thought
Kae... one thing that always struck me was who the angel was in Genesis, halting Abraham's sacrifice of his son. Who do you think the angel is?
Jesus was as much human as he was God...also, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew...the tetragramatron (God's name in Hebrew, commonly referred to as YHWH) is not the same as Jesus...also, Jesus is just an english translation, much like the names God and Lord.
Jesus was referred to as a God ...i believe God and Lord are titles. In both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint, Gods personal name appeared as the tetragrammaton in the hebrew characters יהוה , translated YHWH , and pronounced in English as Jehovah. In the second or third century C.E., scribes removed it from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures. It was replaced with Ky'ri-os "Lord" or Theos' "God" . This may have caused confusion with the early gentile Christians in identifying Jehovah and Jesus as two separate personalities. Even Jesus himself, accepting the book of Isaiah, would have pronounced the divine name when reading out loud in the synagogue at Nazareth. Luke 4:16-21 16 And he came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.†20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. 21 Then he started to say to them: “Today this scripture that YOU just heard is fulfilled.†To also fulfill these words in John 17:6,26 6 “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.â€
Maybe it was the same angel that was found at Jesus' empty tomb in Matthew 28:2 ....They seem to turn up just at the right moment don't you think ?
In the original Hebrew, you are correct on the characters that form the tetragramatron...however, you might forget that the ancient hebrews used the word "Adonai" instead of pronouncing the tetragramatron...That use of "Adonai" is what lead to the words "God" and more so "Lord" being put into the english translations, as "Adonai" in biblical hebrew correctly translates to "The LORD". So no, when Jesus read from Isaiah, he would have used "Adonai" and not YHWH (which correctly transliterates in English as Yahweh, not Jehovah...Jehovah correctly starts with a yod in Hebrew, as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew)... Furthermore, we don't really have any of the second or third century manuscripts to check what the scribes did, we can only speculate. And up until then, much of the information that was written down was from spreading by word of mouth...therefore instead of saying the Divine Name, they would have heard "Adonai", which would in turn make them think to write down "The LORD", or kyrios in the classical (not necessarily modern)greek...This in turn only strengthened the argument that Jesus and YHWH (which is a form of the verb that means "to be" in Hebrew, "I am" as God said it)are one in the same...
I care, and I'm sure you will when you die and eventually have to meet God...besides, money doesn't speak, it only leads to greed...
All the Angels have built in GPS and God provides them with latest news through wireless RSS, so they can be always be in the right place.
I definitely do not want to go around in circles on this one cause there is never an easy answer when concerning the scriptures we'll just have to let the spirit guide us. D16 you are absolutely right that it matters though. Not wanting to know the truth or not acknowledging there is a higher power and intelligence has got to be the worst scenario of them all.
If someone did a "phrase count" throughout all your posts. Guess what would come up the most? "There is no God" 146 times out of 300+ posts. One would think you might have something to add to that as it is getting a bit boring and repetitive?? Col
the classes I have had while working on a masters in theology lead me to the answers I have derived...I love debating about the Bible and the original languages...somehow I think that God likes it to when we try to figure it out, knowing that we can never exactly understand what God is trying to say.... hes starting to sound like gwhirled...
I don't think so, Kae, because this angel said the following: Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. Kae, here's what I read, this "angel" told Abraham not to lay his hand upon the child because: "now I know that thou fearest God" Now, who? Now "I." And the angel continues: "seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." From whom? "From me." Kae, I believe if this were only an "angel" it would NOT have been accounted "fatih" to Abraham to have stopped this sacrifice. And I believe there is common sense proof of this in alone what I have already demonstrated, but let's look to biblical proof of this. Either this "angel" had the authority to stop what God said to do or he did not. And apparently, because Abraham was accounted faith by this act - the angel must have had the authority. Who but God has the authority to change God's command? This passage does not suggest, as it does, say, in 1 Samuel 10:9 that God gave Saul a new heart. No, it says that the "angel" told Abraham to stop. So speaking of Abraham, and God's directive to him. A similar example can be drawn again from 1 Samuel 15, when Saul was commanded of God to slaughter Agog, and the Amalekites and all that they had, all the people, all their animals thereof, and to "spare them not." Saul did not obey this command (while Abraham did until the "angel" told him not to), and far from being counted "faith" unto Saul, by his not following through on God's command, {which, had the angel not himself been God would have had been the very same thing} Saul was instead cursed. Why? Because he did not obey the command of the Lord: Abraham did, the "angel" commanded him and it was accounted him "faith;" this can only be so if the angel was Himself Lord, the pre-incarnate Christ. The Christ of the Trinity. 1Sa 15:22 ...Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams. But Saul did not obey God's command. Abraham did, how if the angel were not the pre-incarnate Christ? How could Abraham have been seen to "obey God's commands" if an angel instead threw Abraham off God's track? What angel has the audacity, the pride, to attempt to overturn God's commandment? Satan. How could listening to an angel, if not satan himself, how could listening to an angel over God's command be accounted faith? Either you're of Abraham, or you're of Saul. Either the Angel was of the authority of God, was God, or Abraham did not obey. Rendering Abraham no better than Saul. For if that angel were not the pre-incarnate Christ then Abraham and Saul, neither obeyed God's command. We know Abraham did for it was counted faith unto him. Again I ask who was the angel?
I see angels as messengers of God and they speak his word not their own. I see where you are coming from with the Abraham scripture but if you do a study of the rest of the accounts of the angels of the Lord you may see what i mean. Jesus existed in the heavens as an angel by the name of Michael before he walked the earth as the sinless man Jesus Christ. He was given the authority of the earth and heavens by his Father in heaven so maybe he was this particular angel. I dont believe that Jehovah ever meant for Isaac to die that day but it was a simple test of Abrahams faith. God reads our hearts.
I understand that as a religious person, you must think that intelligence, knowledge and logic are sad.
Kae, I know of no other scripture where an angel has countermanded a command from God. If I am wrong, please show me where this occurred. I believe it has never occurred and the reason is that an angel cannot countermand God. Only one has ever tried and he is known as satan. Note how this angel, however, speaks in the first person, not as a messenger of God, but as one with the authority to countermand: Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. "Lay not thy hand upon the child" is a countermand of God's edict. "...for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." Note the words "now I know" and the phrase "thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." The immediacy of the "now I" shows this angel was changing the directive of God on the spot, and that it was he and not the Father that luxuriated in this countermand. Yet God, the Father, counted Abraham's actions faith. God would not have counted Abraham's actions faith if he did not obey. To obey and to trust in the will of God is the very lesson in this narrative. The fact that the angel in the "now I" and "from me" had the authority in the First Person of, not from, mind you, but of God to countermand alter God's First PErson directivew to Abraham can only mean that he shared that eternal position with the Father which to my mind certainly points to the Trinity. As for Jesus being Micheal the Arc Angel, can you show me any Scripture which points you to this conclusion?