How about unlimited badwidth?

Yes, I should have clarified, the $224 is net, not profit...but as I said, that's for 25 users. I agree it's hardly worth it, but some "companies" out there have a weird expectation of profit. $300 profit per server, might not be bad for someone just running a hosting business on the side, which is what a lot of these "companies" are doing.

 

Sorry, couldn't go without answering this one. I don't see how unmetered is any less or more valid than unlimited. You either believe its possible or you don't and by not measuring what people are using how do you know what's going on and how much bandwidth you need to order from your supplier? Unmetered hosting often comes with restrictions that are more onerous than those offering unlimited, so I don't see how it is necessarily better for the hosting client.

Unlimited is saying to the client "I'll give you as much diskspace and data transfer as you need, when you need it" (an even bigger clue) which is probably more honest than saying "I'll give you diskspace and data transfer and won't measure it but it will be limited by the port speed which you could easily breach so while we're not measuring it we are limiting it P.S. I will be measuring it (I have to) but I won't say anything to you."

Other restrictions will apply (which they always do) which could limit their ability to use this to their full extent. Plus, do people really understand what is meant by unmetered?

Just to get back to the "unlimited" thing for a moment. Has anyone given any real thought as to WHY people like to see that? A few years ago, data transfer and disk space was limited. If you went over your limits you were punished severely. Not by a good hiding, but by a very expensive excess use invoice. Even now, there's a couple of large UK hosts who charge £0.05 per mb for transfer overuse (billed in 1GB increments) if you go over your allowance - that's over £50 (about $80) per GB, just for going over by 1MB. Similar, but not quite so onerous, charges apply for diskspace overuse.

Is it any wonder clients are so paranoid about exceeding these limits? Clients aren't totally in control of their traffic and one busy month could end up costing them hundreds of pounds in excess usage - hundreds or even thousands of times more than they were paying for their hosting. Many clients also worry about their site hitting the big time, or becoming popular. It may be a vain hope for many, but for those it does happen to their excess charges could shut them down quicker than they grew. Who can blame them for being attracted by hosts saying "unlimited" or a better translation "Don't worry about excess bandwidth charges - there won't be any". I know who I would choose if I was a client.

OK, their chances of using unlimited amounts is unlikely because of other restrictions, but since these restrictions aren't any different from other hosts, then they obviously don't have anything to worry about - certainly not having to worry about a large invoice appearing is a good thing. "Unlimited" works in their favour, not just the host's. Where "unlimited" falls down is when people see that as being the same as "unrestricted" (I've said this before - somewhere in this post), and it's possible that "unmetered" could be misinterpretted in exactly the same way.

As hosts, we all know what the average site uses. If you enjoyed statistics at school or college then you'll recognize a bell-shaped distribution curve and know that the vast vast majority (99.99%) of sites fall within a very narrow range of diskspace use and data transfer use. You'll also know that the biggest majority of sites (99.9%) of them are paying for the extra 0.09% that use slightly more than average but are acceptable.

If you take a host offering unlimited hosting, they can probably cater for that 99.99% of sites quite happily with standard hosting plans and allowances. That means that 99.99% of sites (I'm making these percentages up, but I'm sure I'm not far away from reality) purchasing unlmited hosting plans are not only catered for but they also have the assurance that they will never get an unexpected (and unknown amount) excess data transfer or excess diskspace use invoice. Surely that's a good thing for hosting clients. I think it is. Catering for 99.99% of sites and customers is a batting average that is unlikely to be exceeded in any other market.

The other 0.01% of sites - which is still a sizeable number - are the exceptions to the norm. However, when it comes to shared hosting some of these anomalies can be catered for, but others will use so many resources that they fall foul of other restrictions that apply. These are the ones you often hear moaning about their site being suspended because they wanted to use all of the servers resources to the detriment of other users, and the host didn't let them. Boo hoo, is all I can say about that. I also bet they'd be the first to complain if someone on the same server did that to them. You just can't please some people.

I'll admit that for some hosts the idea of unlimited is purely a marketing ploy. These tend to be smaller hosts with a couple of servers - very much like the examples given about how "unlimited" isn't possible. I can't argue with that because there are unscrupulous hosts around, and given the very small barriers to entry (a $40 server from a cheap provider) and the unregulated hosting market, it's no wonder these types of hosts arrive, thrive, and eventually shut down. But there are hosts who have been around for years, who are profitable and pretty good (no-one is perfect), and who genuinely offer "unlimited".

So, unmetered, unlimited, maybe the same thing at the final analysis. Maybe one means more to the customer than the other, maybe one is understandable while the other isn't. Hosting companies who care about service, about giving their customers a good deal, and who deal with them fairly should be supported and applauded, and not damned and called scammers for giving customers what they want. You don't need "unlimited disk" to provide unlimited hosting, you only need as much space as people need or as much bandwidth as they require, and be able to provide more when it is needed ( I've almost given the whole game away).

If one host offers unmetered, and the other offers "no limits to what you need", I know where my choice would go if I were a hosting client. One means something to me, the other seems a "tricksy" technical word where the whole story isn't being provided. In the eyes of a hosting client "unlimited" is more significant, understandable, and desirable than "unmetered" - even if when you analyse it deeply they are both amounting to the same thing when compared.

Why every host doesn't offer unlimited is what surprises me more than the vociferous crowd who continue to claim it isn't possible because "there's no such thing as an unlimited disk" and "tell me where I can buy one....LOL!" (what a moronic arguement).

As always, it has to come with a warning. READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY. They'll have more impact on your hosting experience than any other factor. MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THEM, and if you don't, find out more about what they mean and how this could affect you. Finally, to repeat myself, UNLIMITED DOES NOT MEAN UNRESTRICTED and the coding of your site will have a massive impact on what hosting plan is best for you. All hosts aren't the same, some with great hardware will be able to run sites that others close-down in shared hosting, but some sites aren't suitable for shared hosting environments - period. Don't expect to run a resource intensive site on shared hosting - you simply aren't going to be able to do that.

Now it's definitely too late. I'm going home.

 

The difference is that most "unmetered" providers list an actual limit, whereas most "unlimited" providers do not. For example, 100mbps unmetered. You can use as much bandwidth as you like within the given limit, as opposed to say 2TB of data, which would be "metered". That's very different than "unlimited." I guess you could also say "100mbps unlimited" and get away with that, but the unlimited providers don't normally do that.

It's a matter of being straight-forward and honest.

 

Unmetered is not the same as unlimited. Unmetered still has resource constraints relevant to the amount of possible and available bandwidth. The difference is, it is limited, but not metered. In other words you can use it as much or as little as you need without any metering or rate limiting.

 

I have never heard of unlimited BW for any thing ever. If I saw that I would immediately not buy from the seller because that is not possible I believe.

 

You've obviously led a sheltered life. There are dozens of companies offering it, many of them the largest hosting companies around. I don't know why you would be surprised or why you single-out only unlimited bandwidth as being a bad thing while not mentioning other "unlimited" offers.

 

In reponse to this and WSWD, I'm perfectly aware of the perceived (and possibly real) technical differences in both the definition and provision of unmetered opposed to unlimited, but from a customer perspective, or real-life shared hosting situations, I don't see there being any difference at all.

If you're talking about the resource constraint being the upper limit on the bandwidth with unmetered, that's partly true.

Other resource constraints such as CPU, RAM etc exist, in similar clauses irrespective of the whether the host is offering unlimited or unmetered.

However, if we look at it more closely, what site is going to be allowed to run at 100mbps without breaking one of the other constraints that apply in a shared hosting situation? Not a single one. So from the hosting clients experience, unmetered and unlimited are amounting to exactly the same thing in the real-world.

For the 99.99% of our fictitious hosting clients (that I mentioned earlier), unlimited or unmetered, is going to work for them. The difference is that clients understand unlimited better than they understand the technical aspects of what unmetered really is.

What's better for them if you attempt to describe it in this scenario (and we'll even be upfront with them)...

1. All hosts have restrictions on what you do with a server and will only allow you to use your fair share of the server's Processor, memory and disk performance. If you end up using more than your fair share, your site could be suspended.

2. The programming language of your site (PHP, ASP, ASP.NET, PERL) and other thing you use such as databases will affect how many of these resources you use. Inefficient code and some applications aren't really suitable for shared hosting and you need to be aware of that.

3. Unmetered means that we won't measure your bandwidth or data transfer, and you won't receive any bandwidth or data transfer overuse invoice but there is an upper limit that you can't go over.

4. Unlimited means you won't be receiving any bandwidth or data transfer overuse invoice and you can use as much of it as your site needs.

What one is the hosting client going to choose?

Since we can see that in the real-world of shared hosting, unlimited and unmetered amount to pretty much the same thing for the user, then unlimited is just as valid and easier to grasp than the technical aspects of "unmetered" and what that means exactly.

Uh huh. That sounds like there's some sort of trick or something your not telling me (say's the hosting client).

You mean just like unlimited? (says the client). And from a technical perspective, that's not quite accurate because there IS a rate limiter - which is why some hosts see unmetered as being more honest than unlimited.


Just my slant on it. I appreciate the technical difference, but I don't see how they pan-out in the real world, or what difference it makes to the end user and their ability to use these unlimited or unmtered resources. For the hosting client they are just the same, but one is easier to grasp than the other.

 

The difference to the end user is that one is guaranteed bandwidth and one is not. For example, on several of my servers, I have dedicated 100mbps connections. You can call that "unmetered" I suppose, as many datacenters do. With unlimited, there are literally no hard limits placed by the host...at least not any they relay to the client. With simply "unlimited" there are no guarantees of anything, and in fact, they can shut you down whenever they want. I'm sorry to hear you don't understand the difference, because it is substantial.

 

Are you attempting to goad me by ignoring the arguement altogether and going off on an irrelevant tangent? I've already made it perfectly clear I understand what the technical differenes are.

Where there appears to be a misunderstanding (I'm being polite), is that I'm saying when it comes to shared hosting, there is no real difference between them, and all you do give is an example of a dedicated server. I'm not talking about dedicated servers, or VPSs, or even reseller accounts. I'm talking about the real-life experiences when it comes to shared hosting customers and whether there is any real difference to their experience between unmetered and unlimited, and I've made a case that, in reality, no there isn't. What does your dedicated server have to do with that?

Really? In what way?

Are you sure? A dedicated 100mbps connection? Really? Do you understand the techical difference between a dedicated 100mbps connection and a 100mbps network port, because it is substantial? A 100mbps, multi-homed BGP4 connection is going to be costing you in the region of a high few hundred dollars (for rubbish transit) and a few thousand dollar for decent transit - every month - and you plug that into a single server? Wow, money to burn!

More likely - and more sensibly - you'll have a 100mbps port on a switch with 24 other users (if you're lucky), all aggregating on the trunk with 1/24th of a share of the trunk's bandwidth. It's unlikely the real capabilities of the port will be anywhere near 100mbps.

I suppose, although a "100mbps contented network connection affected by any QoS" would be more accurate.

Not when it comes to shared hosting. They may sell you an unmetered 100mbps port for your dedicated server, but that's nothing like a 100mbps dedicated connection. I'd be asking about contention, trunk sizes, and other network factors. But, if you run your own network then you will know what these figures are and how they impact on your ability to use it. See, overselling goes on all the time, and even those who think they are above it get involved in it somewhere along the line.

Are we back the the "there's no such thing as an unlimited hard disk" again? Do you actually understand - or even attempt to understand - the arguement here?

Your prejudices are getting in the way of the facts again. I don't see unmetered clients giving out the network limits just as often as unlimited hosts don't, but again, that only applies to some of them. In fact, as we now know, the offer provided by unmetered clients isn't necessarily what's really of offer. You seem to think there is some difference between unlimited and unmetered hosts, with unlimited hosts being the villian. You just can't get past it and never provide any evidence or substance to your statements.

Are you for real? As you honestly saying that a host offering unlimited will "shut you down whenever they want", and that no other host will ever do that. Arent you missing out some essential explanation? Good grief. You just can't get past your own thinking about unlmited = bad and your "facts" about unlimited hosts are so biased that they are becoming untenable.

How can an unlimited host shut down a site whenever they want? Really? Tell me how? Just whenever they want, for no reason? If they consume too many other resources - yes....but don't unmetered, and any other shared hosting provider, have these exact same restrictions and limits too?

And as for "no guarantees of anything". Aren't they offering the client the ability to use as much data transfer, bandwidth, and diskspace as they need? That's hardly "no guarantee". Certainly a better guarantee than those not offering it.

I've argued that from a shared hosting clients perspective, there's no real difference between unmetered and unlimited. Are you telling me that just because a client has a 100mbps connection that they will let a single hosting client use all this network for their own connection (effectively giving them dedicated use of the server)? No, of course not, because there are restrictions on how much of a share they can use.

What about hosts with 10GB networks (they are starting to become viable now). Is any shared hosting client ever going to be able to use more than a tiny percentage of that network's bandwidth?

Getting back to the 99.99% of shared hosting clients. None of these will ever swamp a 10mbps line, never mind a 100mbps, 1gbps, or 10gbps connection. So offering them unlimited data transfer (which isn't the same thing as unlimited bandwidth - there is a relationship, but it's not relevant in this instance) is desirable for the client, possible for the hosting provider, and not really any different from unmetered when it comes to shared hosting.

You're just stuck in your own prejudice. I've given plenty of reasons why unlimited is possible, why unmetered isn't really any different from unlimited when it comes to shared hosting, and why unlimited is not any more of (or even) a scam, dishonest, or purely a marketing ploy, than any other hosting offer. At least I do this with examples and arguements that are relevant, and not just bland statements that aren't backed-up with any concrete examples.

Dedicated servers, VPS, and to an extent, Reseller accounts, are different scenarios altogether, and other important considerations come into play. Dedicated servers and VPSs aren't sold with unlimited data transfer or diskspace because the parameters are different. This whole post has been about unlimited data transfer and diskspace, and the only arena these play any major part is the shared hosting market (and sometimes the reseller market) so that's where the arguements have to lie, and in this market offering Unlimited Data Transfer and unlimited disk space is not only viable, it's desirable for the client, and for most companies a genuine offer.

 

I would try to go with everything unlimited just incase if you know what I'm saying. I think that if you have unlimited everything, you won't have to worry about space or how much traffic you are getting.

 

In my opinion, there should not be any hesitation going with unlimited hosting plan.

But reading that host's terms and conditions about their plans and services is must before signing up with them.

 

Honestly, I didn't even read your entire post. I had a good friend like you many years ago who thought he could somehow win an argument by typing more. Sorry, but my days of typing that much ended after grad. school. Short, succinct posts and I'll actually read them all. Keep typing your responses like above and I'm finished with this thread.

Yes, I know the difference. Yes, I have money to burn. I have dedicated 100mbps lines on a couple servers for higher-bandwidth business applications. I'm well-aware of the difference and well aware of what it costs. But I need it.

You just don't get it. There IS a difference, even with shared hosts. An unmetered line means you will be able to use that much bandwidth. If you give somebody 10mbit unmetered banwidth, it is presumed they will be allowed to use that much bandwidth within their other account limits. If you give somebody unlimited bandwidth, what kind of bandwidth is the user guaranteed? I've seen plenty of hosts shut people down after a few hundred gigs of bandwidth, and they can do it, because nowhere do they guarantee the bandwidth. Unmetered "pipes" or sets amount of bandwidth i.e. 500GB/mo are guaranteed...at least by reputable hosts who actually have the bandwidth to offer.

That's what I'm getting at. With unlimited hosting, you aren't guaranteed anything. You aren't guaranteed disk space, you aren't guaranteed bandwidth, etc. They can shut you down at a whim, simply because they don't like how much you're using.

No thanks.

 

No tricks. Unlimited implies there are NO LIMITS. Unmetered specifically states the limitation, its just not throttled before the limitation. There's no tricks, no implication and nothing similar to "unlimited" claims. Think of unmetered as an all you can eat buffet. Most eat till their full. There is not a limitless amount of food available, nor is their a limitless amount of time to eat it. You have constraints to live within, but generally eat all you want, within the time frame for which you paid, and within the technical limitations of your body's ability to consume it. Think of your stomach as the cpu/memory limiting that intake.

For that buffet to be truly unlimited it means you can eat any time you want, all the time and as much as you want with NO LIMITATIONS. So if you want to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner, 6 days a week at any time of day, you can. The thing is, the people that market these "unlimited" deals know that you still have limitations on the intake. So if 1-2 are actually consuming all the time, but the majority are not, it works out in the wash.

Those of us that offer unmetered services do so at a level that justifies the individual cost. We don't try to make it up in volume. You're truly getting what you way for, whether you use it or not. The unlimited folks typically charge ridiculously low prices and tend to kick the heavy users to the curb.

Again, no tricks, no deception, nothing confusing and there is a HUGE difference between NO LIMITS and unlimited usage of limited resources.

 

I wondered how long it would be before the "unlimited buffet" would come into play. Fact is, even the unlimited buffet has restrictions. No limitations, but restrictions (or rules), and these rules apply whether you are "unlimited" or "unmetered". Despite their being a technical difference between unlimited and unmetered, I'll still contend that for the average shared hosting customer they are amounting to exactly the same thing because the rules that apply make them so. Still, I'm not particularly bothered whether you see that or not and I've said more than enough, and some people get so stuck in the technical aspects that they can't get past what the reality is.

 

Good for you. Money to burn and waste. I simply don't believe you have dedicated 100mbps connections to a single server because no host in their right mind with their own network is dumb enough to do that with a shared hosting server. The only time I would put a 100mbps dedicated line to a server was when a customer requested it for a dedicated server and they would be paying dearly for the priviledge with their own router and dedicated network. All our servers might have 2No. GB network ports, and our switches have a 40GB trunk, but I wouldn't consider any server to have a 1000mbps (never mind 2000 or 4000 duplex) dedicated connection. Still, if you say you have, then well done.

As for writing more, that's only because I justify my position with examples to back them up. You make unsubstantiated statements like "They can shut you down at a whim" without explaining how they could do that legally, or why a host offering unlimited is different from any other host or one offering unmetered. You're blind to your own prejudices, and while I can back up what I say, you can't. You're like a street corner preacher blurting out "the world is nigh" without offering any proof or example of why that would be.

Stick with your opinions. Be blind to the realities. Good luck to you.

 

Wait...who said my 100mbit lines are on shared hosting servers? I certainly didn't. I have 2 servers right now with the dedicated connections, and each server houses a very small handful of extremely high-bandwidth requirement clients; businesses who need to transfer huge amounts of data on a nightly basis. And they certainly pay for the privilege. This isn't 1999 anymore. You would be surprised at how reasonable dedicated bandwidth can be on some very high quality networks.

 

I thought you were finished with this thread. Obviously not.

You did. You used your "dedicated" 100mbps connection as an example of how unlimited and unmetered were different, and how your 100mbps connection was potentially the same as umetered. You also used it as an example of how someone wasn't overselling their shared hosting plans because it was technically feasible for them to offer what they did and still make a profit. This whole thread has been about whether unlimited is possible and since that only ever exists in the shared hosting (and reseller hosting) market, then by implication that's exactly what your were talking about. However, you have had the habit of going off on tangents on the odd occasion that you have attempted to justify your statements so maybe you meant something different from what you said. I'm sure I don't know!

Dedicated servers and VPSs aren't sold as "unmetered" they are sold with data transfer limits or network port speeds so there's no confusion there. I've only seen 1 host -ever - offer "unlimited" bandwidth on a dedicated server...then go on to say it is limited to a 10mbps network port!

Yes, I would be, but that's because we are purchasing bandwidth directly and I know how much it costs...I see the invoices.

Your DC's prices seem about right - http://www.webnx.com/co-location/network-options.html - with a dedicated 100mbps connection costing $2500 per month. A decent price - but hardly cheap - and certainly better than they were in 1999. We pay about double that but mostly because of the location of the datacentres we use, the decision to have our own secure cages for our servers, and our need to be just a few minutes away from our own servers so our own techs can maintain them. When you compare the price of a dedicated 100mbps connection with that of the 100mbps ports they provide for the dedicated servers they rent - http://www.webnx.com/ - you can see the massive difference in price is indicative of there being a significant difference between those offers (i.e. a 100mbps port is NOT a 100mbps dedicated connection)...but you already know that.

The difference between us is that I've never attempted to mislead anyone, or bring in irrelevant factors (your dedicated server with dedicated connections) that aren't core to the arguement. You're like the spokesman for an extremist party who shouts "X is Y and they will do Z", without offering a shred of evidence to back up your statement. I'm not saying you're not sincere in your beliefs but I would have liked to have seem my arguements being pulled to bits with good counter arguements and not just unsubstantiated, biased, and completely misleading, statements.

I don't expect you to change your mind. I could also go around saying "A is B and they will do C" without having to prove it too, but I thought I'd try to bring some reason and explain the thinking rather than be completely biased aboot it.

I may write a lot, but I want to backup my statements with facts and examples so that people understand where my point of view is coming from and why I say what I do.

I've worked at the sharp end of hosting for over 12 years. I can build, manage, and maintain servers (well, Windows servers, haven't got a clue about Linux), I have a current Cisco CCNP qualification so I know a little about networking. I talk from a position of, if not authority, then from a background of relevant experience that is used every single day I work.

I try to see things from the customers perspective (unlimited/unmetered means ultimately the same for the majority of shared hosting clients) while understanding the technical differences between the offers being made. I can also usually see through nonsense and I try to look at things askance to understand a different point of view and see whether it holds water.

I'm sure I could provide strong arguements, with examples, of why unlimited hosting isn't possible, but I'd be missing the point when it comes to the vast majority of shared hosting customers.

I've never wanted things to get personal or insult the person I'm not in agreement with. I don't try to twist their words or take things out of context. I don't want to cast personal aspertions or reach conclusions that aren't supported by what is being said. I don't want to make people look stupid or dumb when there's a good discussion going, but sometimes I react to a statement that's made, in a manner I'm not proud of. I'm happy to call an arguement or point of view dumb, stupid, or ignorant, but never the person (there are some exceptions, but not if there's a good discussion taking place). I feel this has gone beyond that now, and that it is starting to get a little personal and going "off point" into areas that aren't at the core of the whole arguement - is unlimited possible? Is it just a scam or marketing ploy? is there some justification to it? For that reason, for the fact that we're just starting to go round in circles, and the undeniable fact you are welcome to your point of view and opinion (even if I don't agree with it), this will be my last posting here.

The irony is, I don't like most of the "unlimited" offers that are being bandied around either, and I don't think "unmetered" is much better. I think some of them are dishonest, not up-front, and designed to mislead. But, that doesn't stop me from looking past that to understand how, for the vast majority of shared hosting customers, "unlimited" is not only desirable for the client but technically feasable to offer AND provide WITHOUT adding burdens and restrictions that are any different from those imposed by all shared hosting companies. I'll concede that at the extremes all arguement start to get a little flaky, but that's the same for all things.

Good luck to you. Hope your business is successful and that you enjoy it. There's more important things to worry about than what other people are doing or saying. It's all about beating the competition, providing excellent service to your customers, and dealing with those you work with fairly, honestly, and decently, and I wish you success. I'm finished with this thread and I've said all I need to say. Maybe I'll check up in a couple of years and see what the "unlimited isn't possible" crowd are up to.

 

I said about Un-metered, because noone said.

 

Actually there is such thing as unlimited. All Data Centers can offer it and provide truly "unlimited" bandwidth. However, normal web hosts cannot and would be subject to "overselling", which then turns into more of a marketing stunt to bring in more customers. I have a dedicated server, direct from the data center, which has a 10,000GB bandwidth limit. 10TB is a lot of data and is only the likes of Google and YouTube that ever uses that much.

 

Huh???? There is such a thing as unlimited, but then you say its overselling, then its a marketing stunt? I own a DC and I'm here to tell you there is no such thing as unlimited.