1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

How about unlimited badwidth?

Discussion in 'Web Hosting' started by exe download, May 2, 2011.

  1. WSWD

    WSWD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,420
    Likes Received:
    65
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    175
    #21
    You shouldn't find it odd at all. MySQL databases and Email addresses/forwarders are completely different from bandwidth and disk space. I place no limits on the amounts of those you can create. Go ahead and create a trillion email addresses and it won't bother me in the slightest. But you absolutely will not catch me offering unlimited disk space and bandwidth, because it doesn't exist, just like unlimited RAM doesn't exist.
     
    WSWD, May 5, 2011 IP
  2. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #22
    I've been in the business long enough to give me enough grounding so that I can talk with a reasonable amount of experience. While you may not agree with me, you can't say with any authority that I don't know what I'm talking about.


    I don't follow your logic at all. If a company offers unlimited diskspace then that's what's on offer. If they say you can use as much space as you want as long as you follow X rules, it still isn't restricting how much space you can use - just what you can use it for.

    Likewise, if it puts restrictions on CPU or memory use, that still isn't putting a limit on the diskspace you can use.

    As I've said before, you just aren't thinking it through.

    That makes no sense, and certainly doesn't back up your position. Again, you're not thinking about how unlimited IS possible to provide. If they offered unlimited hamburgers then they can't put a limit on how many you eat because that would be dishonest and would end up with them being prosecuted. The same goes for hosting. It's not the amount of diskspace or transfer that is being used that is the cause of someone being closed down, it's the breaking of other conditions that are the problem (I won't argue that this is the case with all companies, I'm simply looking at it from the perspective of a more legitimate company who does work within the law).

    And I agree, but that's because your anecdote has nothing to do with what's really going on with unlimited hosting.

    A better example, using your scenario, is that they offer unlimited hamburger, but there are terms and conditions applying. They will never stop you eating as many as you want as long as you follow these rules, which could be

    1. You can only order one hamburger at a time
    2. You must pay for your first burger
    3. You can only order the same burger type each time
    4. You must finish each burger completely before ordering another one
    5. You must re-join the queue to re-order your next one
    6. Any food that is wasted will need to be paid for

    I can even think of some even more ridiculous terms.

    7. They must drink a large coke with each burger
    8. They must bring their own doctor to assess their health

    None of these conditions are stopping you eating as many hamburgers as you want for free as long as you work to the restrictions they place (again, none of these restrictions are limiting the nunmber of burgers your eat, so the offer is genuine). There's nothing false about the advertising and there's no scam in place.

    Where the false advertising would come in would be when they make this unlimited offer then don't point out that terms and conditions apply (I'm sure you've seen that in many adverts on TV), and this is where I have an issue with unlimited hosting offers.


    Why would you want to waste your time doing that? Why are you so worried about what other companies are doing?

    While you might want to use their bandwidth, I don't know where you're planning to transfer your 50 Terabytess of data from. At some point in the transfer YOU are going to be paying to upload these images. I can't see it happening on a domestic cable or broadband connection - unless you had 78,125 months (or 6510 years) on a 2MBPS connection, 1582 months at 100mbps, or 158 months (13 years) at 1000mbps - and if you're going to do it from a DC you'll get stuck with a bandwidth bill.

    Then, once you upload them, you plan to download them. From where? Your home? You'll have died many centuries before you even uploaded them all, and will be several years older even if you do it on a 1GIG connection. Every mb you download will be marked against your ISP's download limit (no doubt they will be shutting you down for abuse) or from a DC where you'll be paying for bandwidth again. Seems to me your willingness to spend the rest of your life uploading and downloading images could be better spent doing something more productive and a lot less expensive for you.

    Then we need to answer why they wouldn't let you. Simple, you'd have broken their terms at some point. You can't upload all that without swamping a network (restriction), you can't maintain a constant FTP or RDP connection (I only deal with Windows) so you break another condition, and there may be a port limit of 100mbps (or even 10mbps), and a trunk limit percentage that you cant't exceed.

    Also, they probably realized before you did that it was a dumb idea and they wanted to save you from yourself.

    I'm sure there are other reasons we can both think of.

    I've been a member there a lot longer that I have here - about 7 years at a guess. I'd say it's a pretty even split between those who agree and those who don't. It's certainly not conclusive.

    Well, that's certainly news to me. The largest hosts in the UK offer it. The largest host in the world offers it, and many very large and popular hosts in the US offer it. Are these large succesful businesses all wrong, and you are correct?

    BUt it is. It definitely is. Even the smallest host in the world could probably offer it (mmmm, well, maybe not the smallest). Think about it. Think about it clearly. Think about what is being offered and what is meant by unlimited. Think about what people use. I'll even give you a clue (a big one)...unlimited means that no limits are being imposed. Imagine how it COULD be possible. Think about what you would need to do to provide it. Put any prejudices aside about how it's impossible, and think about how it could be offered and given to customers. See, told you it was possible.


    I've never disagreed with that.


    That's true, but that's the point of overselling. Experience tells you what the average web site uses. It's a game of averages where the majority don't cause any issues, and there is plenty of wiggle-room for these who use a lot more.

    Even wondered why mobile networks get jammed during emergencies? Could it be because the telco providers sell more phones than the total capacity of the network? Do you hear about them getting called scammers for doing that when 99.9% of the time (made up percentage) there is ample spare capacity.

    Why should you need to wait for 24 hours for a maintenance engineer to visit you (most people would consider 24 hours a GREAT response). Could it be because more people have purchased a maintenance contract than there are engineers who are available to deal with everyone immediately?

    Why are there traffic jams during busy periods of the day, yet the traffic flows quickly at all other times. Could it be there are more cars being sold than the total capacity of all the roads? Why is that allowed?

    Why do you need to wait 2-3 days to get a doctors appointment with a private doctor when you are paying for private medical care. Could it be because the insurance company has more policy holders that there are doctors available to treat everyone immediately?

    Overselling is what goes on all the time. There are times when it is bad, and other times when it is not only acceptable, but necessary or else it would become uneconomic to provide that service.

    You're definitely mixing up overselling and overloading. They aren't mutually exclusive, but overselling is a fact of life, while overloading is bad practice and bad management.

    How, it just make it oversold. Overloaded is a different scenario altogether.

    Ah!


    True, but in the real world, they don't. When it comes to web site traffic, very litte of that is in the hands of the web site owner. Sure they can advertise, be SEO wizards, but they rarely drive traffic directly. They depend upon other people to visit their site and on the whole traffic patterns are predictable.


    Yep, all these are signs of an overloaded server, not an oversold one. As I've always said, oversold - OK, overloaded - bad.

    Any decent host would be reacting to signs of an overloaded server by making more resources available. That's what good hosts do, and that has nothing to do with overselling.


    I can't comment directly because we use Hyper-V that doesn't allow RAM or diskspace to be oversold. However (since I have an opinion about most things), I'd say that the scenario you describe is not a classic case of overselling but a rock-solid example of overloading. VPSs are not shared hosting and overselling in that circumstance amounts to a bad host, as it is perfectly safe to assume that the majority of sites would easily consume the 1GB of RAM that is provided to them - not an assumption you could reasonably make when it comes to shared hosting. Now, if all the VPSs have 8GB of RAM, I might be slightly more flexible. After all a 16GB VPS host server is pretty puny when it comes down to it. I wouldn't put a VPS host server together for selling VPSs with less than 48GB of DDR3 RAM - but that's just me.


    No, the majority do. I'd like to say they all do, but I don't have experience of them all. You do. So I don't know why you're coming over all holier-than-thou.

    Before you deny it, I've followed the link in your signature. You offer unlimited emails and MySQL databases. How is that different from offering unlimtied diskspace or data transfer? In fact, doesn't the unlimited MySQL database and unlimited email accounts amount to the same thing? After all, each one created uses up diskspace, and since you offer unlimited amounts then by definition you will provide as much space as is necessary for these unlimited resources? What if everyone used their full allocation, wouldn't that overload your server eventually, are you really willing to allow a whole server to be used to hold the databases of a single customer (do these questions sound familiar?).

    While you may argue that these are restricted by the amount of diskspace that is available, then aren't you doing the same thing you say is dishonest and a scam when other people offer unlimited? i.e. given them "unlimited" then restricting their ability to use it. If you know that every email account takes up, say, 50KB (when empty) then why not put a limit on them concurrent with the diskspace limit that they can't exceed.

    Oh dear, hoisted by your own petard.

    You do exactly that with your own hosting. Offer unlimited mail accounts and MySQL databases, but then restrict their ability to use it by imposing disk limits, and if you don't then you have to hope they don't all set unlimited numbers of email accounts and MySQL database or they won't be able to use what you're offering and your servers will be overloaded.

    Your terms place restrictions too - similar restrictions to those you say are dishonest. You have CPU limits, inode limits, and file type restrictions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these, but these limits will clearly place restrictions on what people can do on your hosting platform. I'm not suggesting they are wrong, in fact I agree with them because you have to protect the majority of users from being potentially inconvenienced by someone who want to use all the server resources for themselves, but aren't you being a little hypocrtical criticising hosts for offering something you don't agree with while doing something uncannily similar yourself? No, you don't offer unlimited diskspace or bandwidth, but you do offer other unlimited resources that could be considered equally impossible to provide if you wanted to take the same view as you, and you also impose restrictions that potentially limit peoples ability to make full use of these resources. The reason for these restrictions is neither here nor there, the fact that they exist is enough.

    Am I criticising you for the hosting plans you have, or the policies you have in place? No, they look fair and reasonable to me, but from what I see you are in no position to criticise hosts who offer unlimited diskspace and bandwidth, call them scammers, or damn those who legitimately oversell (not overload), when you (and almost every other host I can think of) do exactly the same thing but select a different resource to do it with.

    Now, to get back to the crux of the matter. Is unlimited diskspace and data transfer possible to legitimately provide? Yes. Absolutely. No doubt about it, and very very easy for the majority of proper hosts who operate their own servers. Will a hosting customer be able to use it all - very very very VERY unlikely.
     
    RonBrown, May 5, 2011 IP
  3. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #23
    But I do.

    How is that?

    Really?

    I've just checked our email server. An empty email account, when created, uses up 200KB of disk space. By my own calculations, even if I only created 1% of your suggested trillion, it would still require 1.86TB of diskspace just to hold the empty accounts. Are you really going to allow that? Your email server may have smaller empty accounts, but they will still take up disk space.

    Then I have to be practical. It would take several lifetimes to create that many email accounts, so I wouldn't even try.

    And what about MySQL databases? We have a couple of customers with their own MySQL Clusters. They hold several databases with each cluster holding over 600GB of database files. Would you be happy to have them on your hosting plan? Would you be happy to let them test your unlimited MySQL databases by moving them over to your hosting set-up?


    I said it was possible to offer it and provide it. You still haven't figured it out.

    You've just made your own choices. Unlimited email accounts and MySQL accounts don't exist using exactly the same logic as you do when you say unlimited diskspace or data transfer doesn't exist. It doesn't stop you offering them though, does it? Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it is wrong, a scam, or anything else dodgy...or at least no more dodgy than a host offering ANYTHING unlimited that uses up diskspace, data transfer, or other server resources.
     
    RonBrown, May 5, 2011 IP
  4. WSWD

    WSWD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,420
    Likes Received:
    65
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    175
    #24
    ROFL! You just don't get it. It is NOT physically possible to offer unlimited disk space and bandwidth. You can only add so much hard drive space to servers, can only network so many servers together, etc. The datacenters do not have unlimited bandwidth (even though you seem to think so). There are only so many OC-192, and OC-768's that run into the datacenters. That is not unlimited no matter how you slice it.

    How do you possibly think they can offer unlimited disk space and bandwidth when it is not physically possible? You are living in a fantasy land if you think you can.

    None of my plans offer you enough space for that, and that's precisely why. You can create as many databases as you want within your given disk space. Same with email addresses, forwarders, subdomains, etc. I don't care how many you create as long as you stay within your limited disk space and bandwidth. Since you think that unlimited plans actually exist, perhaps you should try moving your database files to one of those hosts?
     
    WSWD, May 5, 2011 IP
  5. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #25
    Oh dear. While you're obviously easily amused, you're not thinking very deeply about it. You seem to be so stuck in your own prejudices about it that you can't see the obvious.


    That's no longer true with SANs. You could add petabytes of disk space if you really wanted, but that's not the point and neither is it necessary.

    Considering that we pay through the nose for our bandwidth, I'm more than aware of that, but so what? That's just at the moment. The rate that new bandwidth is being added is quite phenomenal but that's irrelevant. You still can't see it, can you? You just can't comprehend how it's possible to provide a hosting customer with unlimited transfer and diskspace?


    Your point being?


    Why would you need an "unlimited" disk to provide a customer with unlimited diskspace and date transfer? C'mon, how many more clues do you need? I gave you a big clue last time. You're just thinking about it all wrong.


    And straight back at you for your blinkered thinking and you're inability to see past the dumb "unlimited disks/bandwidth doesn't exist" argument. That's so old, and so naive, that it hardly deserves response.


    So you can't create unlimited MySQL databases or create unlimited email accounts then? Isn't that the same thing that you've been calling "false advertising", a "scam", and a "marketing ploy".

    So they are not unlimited. Since there is a disk space restriction no-one could ever create unlimited amount because eventually they would hit that limit. There are other restrictions in place that we've also mentioned, but I'm not going over old ground.

    Your doing exactly what you criticise others of doing, yet claim these other companies are dishonest, not fair, scammers, and even living in fantasy land. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


    They're not my databases to move, and they are in their own cluster for a number of reasons. Fortunately these customers don't believe that people offering unlimited MySQL database have any intention of letting you create them or use them, and since these databases transact millions and millions of pounds sterling they need the assurance of uptime and unbridled performance. They would be shut down in a heart-beat, if not for their size, then for their massive use of resources needed just to run them.

    I'm getting bored now. I don't know what else to tell you. You don't believe it is possible while I can say - as a undisputed fact - that you can offer your customers unlimited diskspace and datatransfer. It's not my job to educate you how it is possible but I've given you enough clues if you just try to think it through and put your existing pre-conceptions to one side for a minute.

    I do agree with you that some companies offering this are out to scam people and have no intention of living up to their side of the bargain. I also agree that it is naive of someone to see "unlimited" as being the same as "unrestricted" (or did I say that?), then feel they have been scammed when they get shut down for resource overusage. I think we both agree that resource restrictions on CPU Usage, inodes, types of files etc etc are there primarily to protect the majority of customers from users who want to abuse resources rather than a "get out" to get rid of customers who cost too much (although it is used for that reason too by many) or why else would you, as a fair and honest host, have them in your terms?.

    We agree on a lot. I don't have a great deal of love for the unlimited diskspace and transfer offers either and we don't provide them, but not because I think it can't be provided but because it does play on the innocence of most purchasers who don't know any better and think that unlimited means they can do what they want. There's too much made of "unlimited" and not enough focus being placed on the fact that other restrictions apply which may affect the ability to use that "unlimited" offer. However, these restrictions aren't put in place to stop the unlimited disk space (or any other unlimited thing being offered) being used, they are put their to protect the performance of the server, other users, and (yes) for some hosts to have a way of getting rid of customers. If these restrictions stop unlimited diskspace or transfer being used, that is an unfortunate circumstance (I say that tongue-in-cheek when it comes to some hosts).

    Back to the original post, they asked if it was possible to provide it. The answer is clearly yes. No explanation of how it is possible was asked for. You think no, I think yes. The largest host in the world offers it (with conditions), the largest hosts in the UK offer it (with conditions), and many large US hosts offer it (with conditions), other hosts don't offer it but usually have identical terms or conditions in their agreement so, ipso facto, clearly these conditions are not set out primarily to limit peoples use of this unlimited diskspace or data transfer. I'd say the weight of evidence is on my side, but I'm sure you don't expect me to say otherwise. These very large and successful companies have figured out how it is possible to offer it and provide it, but I bet their server and network infrastructure isn't massively different to yours. If they can do it, you probably can too, you just need to put your current prejudices aside to see what they already understand.
     
    RonBrown, May 6, 2011 IP
  6. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,095
    Likes Received:
    103
    Best Answers:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    240
    #26
    If anyone has unlimited bandwidth I would like to *send a lot of traffic* to the Great Firewall of China . I think a few zettabytes will do the job . I'm prepared to offr up to 10 USD . Who's up for it ?
     
    ApocalypseXL, May 6, 2011 IP
  7. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #27
    Suggest you look in the Offers section. That seems to be the place to go.
     
    RonBrown, May 6, 2011 IP
  8. wilmatan

    wilmatan Peon

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #28
    Totally agree with this. They market it using "unlimited" but when you read their terms and conditions, you are most likely tricked, or some sort of like that.

    Just make sure you read the terms and conditions!
     
    wilmatan, May 7, 2011 IP
  9. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,694
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #29
    The point is, no one is offering it because it is not possible. ;)
     
    Mia, May 9, 2011 IP
  10. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #30
    I'm not with you at all. The quote you used wondered why two hosts, who are dead against unlimited offers, had unlimited aspects to their plans. I wanted to know how they could be so against the idea, but then offer what they say isn't possible themselves.

    Plenty of people are offering it, so you can't say no-one is offering it. As I've already pointed out the largest host in the world has unlimited plans, the largest hosts it the UK do too, and many large and successful hosts in the US have them. They've obviously figured it out. As for it not being possible, that's simply not true. It's easy to offer, and pretty easy to provide.

    A before we get into the "marketing" scam again, at least read what I wrote earlier - I'll paraphrase - most companies offering unlimited hosting plans don't have terms or conditions that differ significantly from those who don't (at least in areas that could be considered to "count") so they don't have anything "hidden" that's different from other companies.
     
    RonBrown, May 9, 2011 IP
  11. DhrubaJyotiDeka

    DhrubaJyotiDeka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    9
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #31
    Unlimited is impossible but Unmetered is possible. :D
     
    DhrubaJyotiDeka, May 11, 2011 IP
  12. MarketingRadiation

    MarketingRadiation Peon

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    1
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #32
    After reading all the BIG [!] replies in the thread,

    I somewhat agree to WSWD, that its physically not possible to provide just unlimited disk space and bandwidth. If someone's doing it, they are definately OVERSELLING, and within a month or two the server crashes because of 10 guys biting the same burger.

    Now, if you look at the cost factor involved, if you actually offer UNLIMITED bandwidth for $3? or $10 for that matter, do you think that it will cover up even if your servers are located in the worst locations of the planet?

    So my opinion, never fall for unlimited things because theres a limit to everything. Its just that those companies are not sure about the number of clients that are gonna sign up with them!
     
    MarketingRadiation, May 11, 2011 IP
  13. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #33
    Well done for sticking with it.

    I was really hoping for a better arguement than the usual prejudices, but have been disappointed again.

    Of course not, but that's missing the point. It's always a game of averages.

    You provide 200GB of data transfer for $8.99 which includes a good amount of space of a web server (no doubt expensive), "unlimited" email accounts, 24/7 support.

    200GB of transfer is pretty much a 1mbps line being dedicated to that customer when we account for traffic peaks and flows and average use. Are you telling me that you will make a profit if everyone uses their full allowance, plus the disk space, plus the performance-sapping MySQL database. Are you overselling (in the strictest sense). Of course you are.

    As hosts, we all know what the average web site uses up in space and data transfer. By playing the averages you can accomodate those who use more than the average, and even the occassional customer who uses up to their limit...assuming no other term or condition is broken while doing that.

    How is the overselling in this instance, or the unlimited aspects or your plan, any different from a host offering unlimited disk space or data transfer? I've already covered WHY it isn't any different, but don't let that get in you way.

    Are you saying that we should ignore the offer made in your own hosting plans? Have you just come on here and admitted that your hosting plans are not truthful and that you "are not sure about the number of clients that are gonna sign up with them!"

    And, what's wrong with not knowing. Are you a psychic? Do you know how many clients are going to sign up with you day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month? You may have historical data to work with, but I bet you don't really know.

    Offering unlimied diskspace and data transfer is possible, it's simple, and anyone who can't see that in the context of standard shared hosting isn't seeing the wood for the trees. Their own prejudices are blinding them from the obvious.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2011
    RonBrown, May 11, 2011 IP
  14. WSWD

    WSWD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,420
    Likes Received:
    65
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    175
    #34
    Actually, if you do the math, just 5TB of bandwidth can support 25 clients using every bit of their 200GB. Multiply that by 8.99 and you have 224.75. 10TB of bandwidth, and you can double that to $500. Yeah, I'd say it's absolutely 100% doable without overselling. In fact, he is probably turning a darn good profit.
     
    WSWD, May 11, 2011 IP
  15. SlickWebHost

    SlickWebHost Peon

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #35
    Is your budget or companies budget unlimited ? NO. Then there's no such thing as unlimited resources. It's just a marketing technique!
     
    SlickWebHost, May 11, 2011 IP
  16. MarketingRadiation

    MarketingRadiation Peon

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    1
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #36
    Be ready for someone to start firing at you!
     
    MarketingRadiation, May 11, 2011 IP
  17. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,694
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #37
    No one said anything about unmetered though.. ;)
     
    Mia, May 11, 2011 IP
  18. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #38
    And make it 100TB and you could multiply that by 10 again, but then you need to half it again because most of the providers giving that amount of traffic split if 50/50 between incoming and outgoing. But, you're just churning numbers, and you can make them say anything you want.

    In fact, a host talking about "bandwidth" or data transfer in this manner says a lot. We don't go to companies and order 5TB of bandwidth. It isn't sold in that way, it's sold in mbps or gbps. It's converted to GB of data transfer to make is easier to calculate for the majority of people. When I see 5TB I do a quick conversion to mbps (around 16mbps) then add on about 40% for traffic patterns (about 22mbps) then I wonder how it's possible with a 10mbps connection.

    Back to your figures....

    If 5TB can only support 25 clients with an income of $224, then that is pretty lousy as it will barely (if at all) cover the cost of a rented server. That's not much income for pushing that amout of traffic. IF a single site is pushing 200GB of traffic then it's a popular site and isn't likely to be static i.e. it will be using a DB. IF it's using a DB then it's going to be using CPU, RAM, and Disk I/O. and with that much traffic over 25 sites, it's going to be hitting the CPU and disk I/O pretty hard. Chances are there's not much more he can put on the server without overloading it seriously (assuming it isn't seriously overloaded already). I very much doubt you could double the sites for a measly income of $449.

    So, the fact is, he must be overselling because there's no way he'd make enough money to run a company with these margins if all the users used all their allowance.

    I don't know what you consider a "darn good profit" from a server, but unless it's in the 4-5 figures a month for a web server it isn't making you any money when you add on a support team of 3 people for 24 hour cover ($10,000 per month to employ them - note EMPLOYMENT costs, not just salaries), software costs, supporting services, techs, stock, networks, offices. If you're just playing at it for pin money, fine, but these sorts of profits don't support a business.

    But, that's the thing about hosting. Not everyone does use all their resources. In fact, most sites, no matter what plan they are on, use very little resources. So it would be possible, in that example, to have 50, 100, or even 200 clients on that server which then starts to pay for itself and provide income for all the other services that need to be added. I don't deny that, but my answer was in reference to the "unlimited" isn't possible because.....and simply pointed out that by his own logic his plans weren't financially viable either.
     
    RonBrown, May 11, 2011 IP
  19. WSWD

    WSWD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,420
    Likes Received:
    65
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    175
    #39
    Ron,

    You're right that $224 isn't going to yield much of a profit, but 25 people on a dedicated box is extremely low. You can spout CPU, RAM, and Disk I/O all you want, but with any decent server, there is absolutely no way 25 people are going to overload your server. I don't know what kind of servers you use for your company, but if 25 people are overloading your servers, it's time to upgrade. If the 25 clients really are overloading the server (i.e. high-end business clients), you aren't going to be hosting them on a $9/mo plan. And yes, doubling the number of clients to 50 isn't going to overload the server either, and you're still making $300 profit on the server. It's not great, but it isn't bad either, and all that withover overselling, which you say he HAS to be doing.

    Honestly, I agree with you. I think he is overselling. The majority of people are overselling without a doubt. But don't say it can't be done without overselling, when you clearly haven't crunched the numbers. It absolutely can be done.
     
    WSWD, May 11, 2011 IP
  20. RonBrown

    RonBrown Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    105
    #40
    It's OK, it's near the end of page 2 and that's when I a topic starts to get too long for me to be interested in typing much more.

    I've only realize after getting out my calculator, that the $224 you mentions isn't profit, it's income. That's even worse than expected, and profit might be around £24 per month - enough for a can of coke per day if you're careful where you buy it.

    Maybe my expectations of profit on a server are too much for some people. I see a profit of $300 per server and wonder what's the point. Even with 100 servers (that's a LOT of management time and tech staff, plus the support team required for that number of customers) that is only $30,000 per month income which wouldn't even cover the wages never mind the renewal costs for hardware, the datacentre floor space, the power requirements, the ancillary network equipment, and all the myriad costs that go into running a business - changed days from a single reseller plan that we started with, but then again, we all had fulltime jobs elsewhere at the time.

    I look at a profit of $300/month for a server and think "this can't be real" because I don't see how a company could survive on that. When our servers costs between $6k and $10K, and have a frontline life-expectancy of 3 years max, it hardly covers the cost of the cheapest hardware, and when you add in the monthly licence costs for the Windows OS ($100 or $200 per month depending on server) we'd be losing money. Maybe our servers are more powerful than the average shared hosting company, but probably not that much different when looking at hosts with their own set-up where return-per-U of rackspace is another factor in the equation when you don't own the DC but rent the floor space, secure cage, and power.

    Anyway, it's time for bed and my time working on support is over for the evening (it's been a quiet night with no maintenance tasks scheduled until later) so I'm heading home.
     
    RonBrown, May 11, 2011 IP