Well bad example there lol, I would love that to happen, and probably so would most Aussies if they understood how aboriginal politics, laws and religion worked. As for Palestinian terrorists, I'll admit I really do not know enough about them, or their tactics to comment so I will not, or can not, argue/debate the rights or wrongs and will leave that for the Palestinian supporters here to explain. All i'm saying is I can understand why the Palestinians are fighting what I think is genocide given the evidence. The map presented above speaks for itself as to who's in the wrong overall. Israel can spin it all it likes but that map shows it's really about an Israeli land grab and is the only evidence I've seen to conclude it's obviously genocide. Do we need to wait and see? And at what point should we conclude otherwise?
This is probably a very true scenario! They say you get what you ask for and we've all been told how it ends. This will be the armageddon they (bible bashers) have been wanting / expecting, so I would guess around 144,000 of them will survive and they'll be in their 'heaven' and loving their neighbours. Doesn't the good book say that once armageddon arrives and they're in heaven that everyone gets along?
Wow that is shocking how much land Israel has forced after the Mandate... and here is my take on whats going to happen Iran will nuke Israel, Israel will retaliate and nuke Iran Because Iran is so close to Russia any fall out will will piss off Putin and Russia will nuke Israel, The US will obviously then defend its ally and nuke Russia, Now Russia retaliates and Nukes the US. Then any fallout from Russia that reaches China will piss of those commies and there goes the whole world except for Africa (Only becuase they were too poor to join in) Of course North Korea will have its say in all this. I know its a long shot but still a possibility... And in my opinion Iran is really dumb like honestly why waste money on nuclear war heads when you could be building a better Air force or military. I guess what ever floats Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's boat, Also if any one is interested anti semitic remarks really turn him on, and jailing foreign media as spies is pretty much orgasmatic to him.
Yad Vashem has fired an instructor , Itamar Shapira who compared the trauma of Jewish Holocaust survivors with the trauma experienced by the Palestinian people in Israel's War of Independence.
Palestinian people were usually Jews. Ziya, you should be ashamed of talking about politics in this topic. stop saying the Palestinian people suffer al the time.
what have you learned from holocaust? what do you want the rest of the world to learn from it? read this http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/palalt.html
This topic is pure politics. Zionists want the podium to themselves when it comes to suffering. The six million have become martyrs to the increasingly arrogant Israeli military state--whether they would have wanted it or not. The Nazi party was politically elected in Germany. Hitler was the lawful leader of his land. The Holocaust was part of a violent program of ethnic cleansing motivated by the poor economy and an ideology of racial superiority. Utterly contemptible, but the result of political factors rather similar to those taking hold in Israel today, in type if not in scale or scope. Ziya has the right to mention the real-time hypocrisy of the Israeli state in this context, because the Zionist propaganda machine uses the Holocaust to justify and minimize Palestinian suffering. Look at the things Zionists say about Palestinians. That they deserve what happens to them, that they should move to Egypt or Jordan, that they do not exist as a people. You have no right to deny their deaths and ghetto conditions just because you have not yet killed millions of them. What do you say when people deny the Holocaust or the existence of the Jewish people?
Of course she has the right to mention the palestinians. She also has the right to mention the 1992 NFL finals. That is, however, not the topic of thread, nor it relates to it in any manner.
So say you. The title of your thread is "Holocaust Day Thoughts." I, for one, thought immediately of Gaza and operation Cast Lead. Ziya also had similar thoughts. Holocaust Day makes us reflect on the people of today who are suffering from nationalist militarism. Frankly, the fact that you don't see this is the most troubling hypocrisy in this thread. As long as you deny the suffering of the Palestinians, you have no moral authority to rail against "Holocaust deniers" or anyone else who offends your sensibilities with regard to the semantics of Zionism. So what do you mean these issues have no place in this thread? Why should Ziya "stop saying the Palestinians suffer"? Isn't the slogan "never again!"? Does it honor the Holocaust victims to stand by and bemoan an injustice from sixty years ago while staying silent about the injustices of this year? Let us consider, in the name of the victims of the Holocaust, what has gone so terribly wrong that Israel is maintaining open-air ghettos and bombing civilian populations in their homes. Do you think the camp victims would be pleased, seeing that they died so others could be oppressed and slain in their name?
The word "holocaust" is used for the murder of jews in WWII (see, in wikipedia, for example). By thinking of "Cast Lead" while the holocaust is brought up means, that you find parallel between the holocaust and "Cast Lead". If so, allow me to be sorry for you, as you clearly know nothing about the holocaust, were severely brainwashed by this or that propaganda, or hell knows what. Maybe some numbers will help you understand one of the many differences, the scale difference: The death toll among the palestinians, in almost 100 years of struggle, is less than the death toll of the holocaust in a single week. Among the israelis, that makes 23,000 deaths in 60 years of existence, including the many wars against regular armies. Now, I encourage you to think REALLY hard for yourself, and come up with the many other differences between "Cast Lead" and the holocaust. No. For me, theholocaust day makes me reflect, once a year, about 33% of my people who were murdered 60 years ago. About the suffering of the palestinians, reflect every day. This is part of my life too. I find it very disturbing that you put thoughts in my mind and words in my month. Where did I deny the suffering of the palestinians? you are so full of crap. Simply because it is not related. In the thread I argue: "If humanity has learned the lesson from the years before the holocaust, the immediately conclusion is: Stop Iran Now." A lot of things have gone wrong, on both sides. But again, this is not the topic of this thread. This is a very shameful sentence revealing that you understand absolutely nothing about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and especially about Israel.
Actually, I see only one difference: the numbers. Cast Lead was a nightmare for those who experienced it. It was a microcosm. In just a few weeks, hundreds of children and other innocents were killed. Had it been continued for years, the death toll would have reached a level of those proportions. Fortunately, the world applied pressure and the invasion was terminated. You have been denying it since you told Ziya to stop talking about it. Do you also reflect on the homosexuals, the Gypsies, the addicts, and the Catholics who died and were sent to camps? Do you reflect on the Japanese-Americans who were also sent to camps for political reasons? How about the 6 million victims of Pol Pot, or estimated 20 million Chinese who perished in the cultural revolution? The evil is that governments have targeted certain elements of society, imprisoned them, and often killed them. There is always an excuse for doing so. Whether it is Jews, communists, drug users, or merely those who dissent against the government, we should document and protest these practices so that they do not occur in the future. And I argue: if the world has learned the lessons of the Holocaust, stop the IDF jackboots" The topic, again, is "Holocaust Day Thoughts". If you wanted to confine the comments to those that please you, you ought to have called it "Zionist Holocaust Day thoughts." You had the opportunity to define the scope of this discussion in the title. Your protest now is an attempt at censorship. I know you want your moment of wallowing, but the Holocaust wasn't even the largest mass slaughter of the century. What is regretful about the Holocaust is not that Jews lost lives and liberty. It is that human beings lost these things, regardless of faith or descent. When a government's policy unfairly disenfranchises a group and kills them to make an example, we hear the jackboots marching. Never Again! Yes, yes, shameful: I am quite tired of Zionists calling my viewpoint shameful. Let the scales fall from your eyes, for the shame is in Israel's failure to pass the test of power. Instead, you have proven that when the shoe is on the other foot, you'd rather pump up the propaganda machine than acknowledge a responsibility to meet a higher standard. Shalom Aleichem
Your view is shameful because it reflects your lack of understand of Israel. The holocaust doesn't play any role in our daily politics/actions. I were taught about the holocaust at school but the holocaust is not mentioned in our daily life in Israel. Nor in military bases, nor military operations include a reference in any sort. This makes your sentence: "slain in the name of the victims" very stupid. Two differences for you. What do you think about them. I sincerely hope that your hate did not entirely block your sense of simple reason: Holocaust: Good German citizens type X (jewish) killed by following German citizens type Y, only becuase of their religion. No German citizens of type Y killed by German citizens type X prior and during the holocaust. Many jews were WW1 war heroes. The jews were 1% of the German population, who had received 33% of the German nobel prizes by 1939. etc'. Gaza: As a result of a conflict between two DIFFERENT nations over the same small piece of land, both sides suffer casualties. The palestinians never lived amongst us. They are not even mono-religious, but are composed of several different religions. They never contributed anything to us (and to humanity... but that's a different story). The children who live near the gaza border, as reported by the Israeli psychological services, experience a much higher rate of anxious related trauma. This is, since in the last 8 years they didn't know if on the way to school today, a rocket might hit them, I didn't see many threads in the last 8 years about that. That's not as sexy as the Israeli tanks roaming the streets of Gaza. Cast Lead was just our turn to hit. This are, sadly, the rules of conduct in the middle east. Unlike the palestinian "freedom fighters", we do not aim arbitrarily, but try to get those individuals who engage in warfare against us. so here we come to the 2nd of many other differences: Holocaust: Murder everybody for the sake of murder. As many as possible. Gaza: We are a small country. If the US, France, Russia, or UK, would have been constantly bombed for 8 years by any neighbouring city which is captive in the hands of a fundamental islamic organization, they would crush it from the air to the ground in retaliation for the rockets. But we are a small weak and dependent country. Instead we had to go on an infantry operation in the most densly populated place in the world, by thus endangering our soldiers, with the goal of reducing civilian casualties to minimum possible, and hitting only those who hit us. we know that have we answer all of the hipocrites of the west. While they don't have to (i.e. russia in georgia, US+UK in Iraq, UK in actually everywhere in the world, etc'). Even one who understands nothing about the Israeli-Palestinians conflict, as such you, can realize that if Israel wanted to "murder everybody for the sake of murder, as many as possible", there will be no palestinians left today to tell the story.
That's a matter of perspective. The Holocaust has been repeatedly offered as an emotional talking point to justify the segregationist state of Israel, and, indeed, it is doubtful there would be an Israel without the world's sympathy in the aftermath of Hitler. Everything that is done under the banner of David is tinged with the sense of martyrdom and entitlement which inevitably leads to talk of pogroms and Holocaust. I read a LOT of Israeli propaganda, far more than I would like. The references tend to bubble up, like a defensive reaction formation, whenever Israel's policies are challenged. You can say it is "very stupid", but that is exactly what has happened. I'm not sure who you are accusing me of hating here. I suspect you have no idea who you are talking to. Okay, what about Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish? Your points about the contributions of Jews to German society are irrelevant to the killing that occurred. The evil of the Holocaust is that innocent people were deported to miserable camps and killed or allowed to die from starvation and disease. And regardless of popular support, these things were done by the Nazi government, not the German people as a whole. Similarly, not all Jews are responsible for the depreciated existence of Palestinians, although the majority supports a recklessly militaristic and discriminatory government. See my above example for refutation of your claim that Palestinians contribute nothing to Israel. I am sure many more quiet examples could be found. I find the above bolded comments to be utterly racist. How dare you claim that Palestinians have not contributed to humanity? By what measuring stick? As far as the firecrackers raining on Sderot, they have had a mortality rate averaging about three fatalities per year. Those rockets are not the threat you claim. I do not support Hamas firing them, but in no way was Operation Cast Lead a defensive action. It was a punitive one. First of all, stop insulting me...you have no idea who you are talking to. The Nazis did not kill in one day. It took years. Most of the deaths took place toward the end of the war, as the camps were being used for labor. The only reason the brutality of Israel is restrained is because of the pressure of the world. Your logic is impeccable...except that of course, there are Jews left to tell the story of the Holocaust. The Nazis did not murder for the sake of murder. They were executing a plan of ethnic cleansing. Certainly the sadistic and hateful were successful among the Nazis, but in fact the Holocaust was more to do with Aryan ideology than bloodlust. The Jews were accused of something more dangerous than rockets: destroying the German economy through greedy banking practices. And here is the similarity: One ethnic group, loosely tied by a common nationalist mythos which proclaims they are a superior race, has taken control of the homeland and ruthlessly stripped rights, properties and lives from innocent minority populations in order to secure their mastery of this land. They use propaganda, broad brush strokes, and weak justification to demonize the minority and drive them into ghettos and open-air prison camps. Who am I talking about?
Today Israel commemorates the 24,000 soldier and civilian life lost in 60 years of war. Tommorrow, is the national day. This transition from grief to endless hapiness is very unique to a very unique country like Israel, that despite a neverending threat to its existence, have reached countless achievements in all of the fields of life, especially science and technology. You were stuck on my sentence, but it was an uncessary statement which is part of a big argument I was trying to make. You chose not to confront the argument, but change the subject and stay stuck on a not-so-successful sentence. Not before contradicting yourself: How can one side be "restrained" and at the same time bring a holocaust on the other side? You know that the jewish holocaust and the Israeli operations in Gaza are incomparable. I am certain of this. You are just trying to "make headlines" And Here is a more detailed story about your doctor He is very famous in Israel, he was trained in Israel, and a small detail which was "forgotten" by the site who cited the SAME article from Haaretz, the Israeli news paper. sott.net: "The world for people who think". LOL. But that's ok, after all, the Germans treated all of the injured amongst the jews in their hospital, right? Did you know that at this very moment thousand of palestinian kids (not only those who were hit by the IDF) are being treated in Israel against cancer and other diseases? But anyway, lets play a game, if you don't mind. Assume for the moment that Israel is not one of the world most unique democracies, but a dictatorship. The ruling dictator, is youself. Everything you say: will be executed. The date is January 2009. For 8 years, the palestinians are firing "firecrackers" on a daily basis. The israeli media however, publish big colored pictures of the homes hit and calls the "firecrackers" - "rockets". The rockets traumatize the people of sderot and the villages around Gaza. Two years ago they kidnapped a soldier and killed two in the occasion. Then the Hamas make a coupe in Gaza (killing 206 Fatah members...). They terrorize also the people of Gaza, by bringing the Iranian/afghanistan model of strict islamic rule to the poor palestinian people. Islamic fundamentalism is actually the last thing they need. The Israeli public opinion is putting a lot of pressure on you to stop the rockets and allow the civilians near Gaza to return to normal life. The man on the street says: "We took out the military from Gaza. We took out the settlers. Is this our thank-you-gift"? What would you say to the public, and more importantly, what will be your next move? Moshe Dubman, Israel. p.s. You didn't say, and I didn't ask. I would be very happy to know who am I speaking with, if its not a big secret. Usually those who debate with me here, actually all of them so far, the Israel haters, hide their nationality/education/identity. For some reason, they are ashamed of it?. do tell if you have nothing to hide/be ashamed of.
LOL, My rep from the above posts: CT, I am an American of Jewish origins and have been actively debating IDF activities vis-a-vis Palestinians on these forums for several months. I don't care to rehash all of that, and I have written exhaustively here, so if it interests you, please look up my previous posts since the beginning of the year and debate with those. I take a lot of heat for my views on Israel, but I assure you my opinions are well-studied. You may disagree, but that is because you don't understand where I am coming from. I am deeply troubled by the move toward militarism that has become more deeply entrenched since the assassination of Rabin. I question the entire approach to the Palestinian issue. My solution? Briefly, structured individual reparation payments as an incentive to curtail attacks, and full enfranchisement (voting) and right of return for all 1947 inhabitants and their descendants. Put that on the table, and let's see if the rockets stop. If I were actually in control, I would establish a Constitution without preference to religion or ethnicity, replace the Star of David with an Olive branch, and probably change the name as well. Once the constitution was in place, I would allow democracy--including all the new voters--to take its course. Has the Palestinian suffering matched the Holocaust? No, of course not, as I mentioned above, the casualty numbers are far lower. There are other differences...Hitler had personal ambitions of world domination, whereas Israel is content to dominate the world through US proxy. Ultimately, though, for those who have been made refugees, or suffered injuries and death, there is no difference. That is my point. Not all Jews suffered in the Holocaust; some escaped and prospered. That does nothing to mitigate the suffering of those who were killed or lost relatives. I'm not here to suggest that Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany. There are some similarities, but obviously the world has changed and Israel's leaders dare not be so wanton. Certain extremists no doubt want the Arabs all to be killed, but the mainstream merely wants to confine them in a reservation. Actually, the US is a better parallel, as the Palestinian plight more closely resembles that of Native American tribes. I am stating that many Palestinians are being treated in very similar style to indigenous "minorities" in other segregationist states, and that this is completely unacceptable in light of Holocaust-centered morality. I also believe that world protests have had a mitigating effect on these instances of slaughter, so if we had remained silent, perhaps Cast Lead would have turned into a much deadlier invasion. It is time Israel take the parallel seriously.
Hitler had "jewish origin" as well he would execute everybody who dared to mention it. Your attempt to imply that your view are very "balanced" by stating your "jewish origin" didn't work. You know, this is my life and my future here, not such a new hobby i take for academic pleasure and for extra attention that I do in my free time, I am a very smart and humanistic guy, involved in politics, and I even speak arabic fluently, so by defintion believe me no matter how you THINK u're 'well-educated' in this subject, I know more. much more. The Israelis will NEVER, agree for the return of the refugees to the pre-1967 territories. two reasons: 1) This is not like having a "blue" state american moving near a "red state" american. The societies, are too different. They can not live together in this and the next generation, at least. there are grave cultural differences. Im not sure that unless you lived a year in the middle east, you are even capable of grasping what they mean. If you thought that the palstinians are americans that speak arabic, think again. 2) If you are 'well-educated' in the subject, you probably have stumbed upon the many video of excerpts from palestinian hamas PM Haniyeh's speeches, were he says that 1) Israel has no right to exist. 2) Hamas will never recognize Israel. But I will not give a link to those videos, but rather to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhAih0PHw2M this interview to the western media. Here, he is more "cautious" with his statements. Just pay attention to the beginning: how he can't say "We will recognize israel, someday". If it werent funny, it would have been sad. More on Haniyeh, your hero: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3o1ZSC5ABA , more on hamas education: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3o1ZSC5ABA Besides, I hope that you know that these rockets fall on pre-1967 territory. Thank you. There are no similarities. My 'well-educated' friend. Do explain how does your latest quoted statement settles with the following facts: 1) the biggest party in the israeli parliament, Kadima, decided not to enter the government because they believe it to be too-right winged, with no prospects for peace. The party leader, livni, could not hear in clear words from PM netaniahu, that they will be acting for the establishment of a pal state. 2) polls that show 70% among israelis support a palestinian state, NOW. 3) An Israeli PM can not get elected without saying words like : "I am willing to make big compromises for to reach peace". The elected PM, you heared in previous paragraph how he thinks the future should look like. I bet you didn't know that severe limitation, similar to pre-WWII limitation on jews, are put on palestinians living in arab countries. After 1991, Kuwait ethnically cleansed (<< you like that word, don't you) palestianins out. Nobody cared. Nobody even know that. See in this academic paper. And now for my critique over Cast Lead: This time, we went too far. The number of casualties and the high % of civilians among them is unbearable. Even the popular claim in Israel that "if a kid slaps a man for 6 years every day without a reply, one day he will get a one big punch back", is not an excuse. The is nothing we could do about the rockets except for drying gaza further from the south, preventing the smuggling of those rockets. There is also another, less moral than cast-lead, incompatible with international-law, solution to the rockets problem I thought of Israel will declare: for every rocket arbitrarily fired on Israel village, 3 random houses will go down in gaza in the next hour. I am starting to think positively about this course of action, although immoral and primitive. But "fight fire with fire". Those guys that shoot the rockets don't exactly read internaional-law books for bedtime... Another thing, If I might. I hope that on this subject the term 'well-educated' will justify itself Its put Israel aside and hear what you have to say about the USA. 1) What do you have to say about the unjustified US occupation of Iraq? the deathtoll is higher than in "palestine". 2) Do you also find, like myself, the atom bombs on hiroshima&nagasaki the second worst crime in humanity after the holocaust? 3) Do you think Barack obama will stand, for the first time, against Israel telling them: either u're with us, or not, stop shitting us? 4) Do you think, like myself, that US role as world super power is over. It will be replaced in 20 years? I heartily invite you, in case you haven't yet, to drop by for a visit in Israel, I will show you around, maybe you will have a different view then. You can can also visit the palestinian authority, although I wouldn't recommend that, it is dangerous for americans...... but in Israel, you just say your american, and all the unbelievably beautiful israeli chicks are in your arms Today is the 61th Birthday of Israel (national day). The wonder continues for another year! Cheers Moshe dubman.
1. I have always opposed US intervention in Iraq and have publicly demonstrated against it many times. 2. I agree that the atom bombs were a crime against humanity. It is hard to quantify such things. The past century was full of such unfortunate history. 3. I am not sure about this. Obama is very pro-Israel in many respects. Whether this changes will depend on future developments. 4. Let me look into my crystal ball...