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Have You Been Burnt? (buyer or programmer)

Discussion in 'Programming' started by BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008.

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Have you ever been BURNED in a deal?

  1. I am a buyer, I paid for a project, and lost money because it wasn't completed

    17 vote(s)
    29.8%
  2. I am a programmer, and lost money because i did work, and did not get paid for it

    26 vote(s)
    45.6%
  3. I am a buyer and never been burned

    6 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. I am a programmer and never been burned

    8 vote(s)
    14.0%
  1. #1
    Just curious to know how many people have been burned in the following way

    I paid a coder for a job, and he didn't finish it and I lost my money.

    or

    I did a job for a buyer, and he didnt pay me, so I lost money.

    please select the poll above and then comment below.

    What if Digital point had an ESCROW system?

    basically a 3rd party who mediate between the buyers and programmers.

    It would work like this.

    1. A person asks for someone to do a a project
    2. they discuss with programmers and select one to do the job
    3. Once selected the BUYER DEPOSITS 100% of the agreed amount into escrow
    4. Once money is in escrow buyer CANNOT cancel
    5. The programmer KNOWS the money is available and starts work
    6. When the job is done, the buyer releases escrow to the programmer

    This Does 2 things

    1) makes sure the buyer gets what he paid for
    2) makes sure the programmer gets paid for the work done

    who would be interested in this, if the fees were reasonable


    Here is the best part....in case of a disagreement, the case would be MEDIATED...meaning it would be reviewed and determined if work was done or not...and if a portion or all of it would be fair to pay.

    Lets say a programmer starts a job and finishes it, but the buyer didnt specify a feature...the mediators determine if the programmer should be

    1) paid anyway, as its extra work
    2) the feature is considered standard and should be added before pay
    3) if both parties agree, the job canceled, and the buyer gets nothing


    thoughts..comments? anyone interested in helping me make this happen?
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  2. rkquest

    rkquest Well-Known Member

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    #2
    As a programmer, I've been burned twice. Backed out not in the middle of the project but after I finished the work. I didn't get a single cent and I spent hours working on it. There was no problem with my work and I did exactly how they wanted it.
     
    rkquest, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  3. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #3
    that sucks...

    what do you think of the escrow idea??

    in your case, even if they hd changed their mind later, you would still have been paid, because you finished the job and the money was placed in escrow before you even started
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  4. LongHaul

    LongHaul Peon

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    #4
    Just last week I did two jobs, and can't get either one to respond to my emails or PMs.

    One was a PSD->HTML layout. I did it, tweaked it like he wanted it, but when finished I didn't get anything for it, lost several hours. The other was a short 2-hour job, when I sent it to him to ask if I was on the right track (it was a php script) I didn't hear anything. But neither did he get a working, usable script, so I guess we're both out of luck.

    Escrow might work, I now ask for half up front and it seems to be working fine.

    Funny that so many on DP want so much work for such little money, and when it comes time to pay they don't even feel like paying that!
     
    LongHaul, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  5. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #5
    well thats the dichotomy it seems

    Programmers want to be paid as much as possible for work

    Buyers want to pay as little as possible for work

    somehow everyone tries to meet in the middle.

    Here is a problem:

    You've been burnt now...so you require money up front, but for a new customer, how do they know YOU won't run off with the money...Of course you won't, and I am not implying you would...however, you are a stranger to a new customer, and maybe THEY were burnt when paying in advance.

    And its possible for you to get the 50% and not get the rest...well at least you got half of it.

    But ESCROW will help you and your customer

    People who don't know you, know they get thier money back IF you don't complete the job

    and YOU know you will get paid, as they have put the money into escrow.
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  6. solutionsystem

    solutionsystem Member

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    #6
    I have been burnt by indians couple of times and one-time American, in 4-years - Indians swifting speak lies and get the job, then run-away. I have boycotted them - to not work with them again or atleast 100% advance payment first -
     
    solutionsystem, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  7. Darkler

    Darkler Active Member

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    #7
    I am a buyer and I have been burnt twice, because of UPFRONT PAYMENT.
    Both of them are U.S. Coder, they have given many excuses to not completed my work.

    I prefer to not disclose their name

    First Coder said "I was sleeping,because I'm too tired with my office works' thus, I can't finish your project in timely manners"(Sounds good)

    Second Coder said "My programmer has been vacation, I have to wait until my programmers' back from from vacation", Everytime I message him "Yes, I'm fixing it now".

    Just a 5 minutes fixing, he also can't do. he said "I'm going to Italy for business". If you can't fix the site, please admit it. Please don't say many excuses. If you are dumb, please admit that you are dumb. I waste a lot of money for this.
     
    Darkler, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  8. rkquest

    rkquest Well-Known Member

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    #8
    You're escrow suggestion sounds good but it's quite a big change in the BST Services forums. I'm not sure if people can adapt that quickly to it.

    I don't have any issues with the current system. Right now, I don't take large projects from members I've never worked with before. And I make sure that in case my client suddenly backs out of the deal, i can sell the script to someone else. It works for me.
     
    rkquest, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  9. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #9

    sad to hear that...I am not sure its simply because they are indian though...its probably because thats who you used mostly, and therefore the lies came from there.

    I also have been burned, and it seemed to come from all nationalities.

    would you use an escrow service, that assured you of payment?
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  10. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #10

    yes, thats the worse...when they disappear and either give excuses or just don't reply.

    at least with escrow...if they don't abide by the terms of the agreement...and stop communication, you would get your money back and could use the same money to get a coder.
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  11. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #11
    I don't see escrow being used for scripts...since most people pay in advance and are quick to tell the rest of DP if they don't provide the script.

    This would specifically be for design and programming...custom services.

    I would say a cap of $500

    basically its like INSURANCE for both the buyer and provider.

    Everyone knows where the money is, and both people have to live up to their end of the bargain.


    in a short amount of time, more people than I thought took the survey...looks like this could be a good service, if people actually used it.
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  12. Theme Viewer Script

    Theme Viewer Script Peon

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    #12
    I am a buyer and seller ...I have been burnt couple of times as a programmer and as a buyer too.

    But its just another business with its own profits and loss graphs...Though its much more riskier out here .

    I prefer taking phone numbers and ask if the person is verified user on paypal ...and mostly use credit cards to pay via paypal...So if i sense a fishy situation i chargeback .

    I have found awesome Indian company who is real bliss to work with saving me tons of money and time .

    Nationality cannot be judging parameter its just the kind of people you come across.

    Happy Webbing :)
     
    Theme Viewer Script, Mar 30, 2008 IP
  13. LongHaul

    LongHaul Peon

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    #13
    True, people have to assume I won't run off with the money.

    If I lose any business because someone doesn't want to pay half up front I certainly can't blame them. But I can't afford to take the risk of spending 8 hours on something and getting nothing out of it. I make a low amount per hour as it is, free is too low.

    But I just keep plugging away and giving people plenty of return for their money so I am slowly building up clients and jobs from people who have a mutual trust with me.

    What I would rather have is a public place to post screen names and details of people who don't follow through on their deal. Like the guy whose template I coded and who didn't pay me, now what??
     
    LongHaul, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  14. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #14
    like a blacklist

    that would be good...except by their very nature they are liars

    so they would just get a new screenname

    I know someone that I warned and warned people about was a scammer...she ended up scamming 100s of people on a forum before she was finally banned.

    guess what, it wasnt the first time she did it - under a diff name, and so im sure she is still out there...scamming people

    you can never keep up with scammers

    which is why i say escrow..because it ELIMINATES them
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  15. rkquest

    rkquest Well-Known Member

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    #15
    Just check the rep/iTrader of who you're dealing it. Often (but not always) that's a pretty good gauge to see if you're talking to the right person. I'm not saying don't make deals with members with low rep/iTrader (like mr. thread starter.. lol) but try not to make risky deals until you have worked with them before (say several small projects) and you know they're trustworthy.
     
    rkquest, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  16. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #16

    what about the people who find people who are not members of the forum? they did a search on google, and found the provider here?

    or found the buyer here?

    then what??

    and trust me...it can happen even with HI REPPED/TR people
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  17. rkquest

    rkquest Well-Known Member

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    #17
    I didn't say you won't get burned with hi rep/itrader people. I know a high rep and high itrader member here who suddenly turned evil and scammed people. he got banned. What I said is that it's often a safe deal when you're talking to a high rep member. Often but not always. It's just that hi-rep members tend to protect their reps.

    If you ask me I'm pretty satisfied with the way things are run here even though I got burned before because I do what I mentioned in my previous posts. I buy and I sell and often I find the people that I need.
     
    rkquest, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  18. benjaminp

    benjaminp Notable Member

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    #18
    This would be a whole lot more work for DP. Why not just use an existing online escrow service? A genuine person with nothing to hide should object to this.
     
    benjaminp, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  19. BusinessCoach

    BusinessCoach Well-Known Member

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    #19

    which ones do you recommend?

    I was thinking one that catered specifically to the needs of DP
     
    BusinessCoach, Mar 31, 2008 IP
  20. AdnanAhsan

    AdnanAhsan Well-Known Member

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    #20
    wel i also burnt twice, i did work .. but i am not scared because my other clients are very nice and they paid me :) hopefully i will find more honest clients :)
    so i am positive.
     
    AdnanAhsan, Mar 31, 2008 IP