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Guidelines for adding Multiple listings on DMOZ.

Discussion in 'ODP / DMOZ' started by LaCabra, May 22, 2006.

  1. CReed

    CReed Prominent Member

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    #41
    I imagine it to be rather difficult to apply any principle that is not understood. If an editor were to create a poll in the internal forums I would expect that you'd find the majority of editors are unsure of what's acceptable when it comes to deeplinking. I would guess that most editors would also admit that they've never considered listing additional pages when reviewing a site.

    I really think that very few editors understand the guidelines regarding deeplinking.
     
    CReed, May 26, 2006 IP
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  2. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #42
    or any other guidelines for that matter. How can you understand something that contradicts itself in every other sentence, but that is the art of writing unenforceable guideline. ;)
     
    gworld, May 26, 2006 IP
  3. orlady

    orlady Peon

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    #43
    At http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=939642&postcount=40 Expertu commented that it should be OK to submit the same URL to many different "Regional" areas, as long as the site is available in many different languages.

    I'd like to set the record straight regarding one important aspect of that comment:

    Please note that ODP Regional categories are only for websites in English. Sites in other languages are listed in ODP World categories.

    If a site has worthwhile content that is available in several languages (not by on-the-fly machine translation, but with versions in all of those languages), the site can be listed in the World categories for all of those languages. :cool: However, if you submit that site to many different categories in Regional, editors are likely to conclude that you are spamming the directory. :mad:
     
    orlady, May 26, 2006 IP
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  4. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #44
    Good evening, orlady.

    Have you been able to get one of your committees to decide on an answer yet to the question I posed twice to you earlier in this thread?

    Or are they still debating the issue?
     
    minstrel, May 26, 2006 IP
  5. Cristian Mezei

    Cristian Mezei Notable Member

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    #45
    Right, sorry for the confusion. What i meant is the user can submit their italian language version in Italiano ... , their french language version in Francais, and so on.
     
    Cristian Mezei, May 26, 2006 IP
  6. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #46
    What an odd woman. Every time I ask that question she runs away. :confused:
     
    minstrel, May 26, 2006 IP
  7. Cristian Mezei

    Cristian Mezei Notable Member

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    #47
    Maybe she's not (wasn't) online man ...

    Can i help ? :p
     
    Cristian Mezei, May 26, 2006 IP
  8. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #48
    She was online.
     
    minstrel, May 26, 2006 IP
  9. Cristian Mezei

    Cristian Mezei Notable Member

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    #49
    Usually, direct attacks (eg. questions, acts) are not a good way to get answers from shy/undecided/biased people, not the the above person would be any of the previous.

    I would wait a bit more.. :) (Don't red rep me ? :D)
     
    Cristian Mezei, May 26, 2006 IP
  10. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #50
    I'm sure you're right, E. She's probably just too shy to say either that she was mistaken or that her original statement was an outright lie. :)
     
    minstrel, May 26, 2006 IP
  11. shygirl

    shygirl Guest

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    #51
    I thought I was the only Shygirl here !!

    Anyway back on topic.

    Hmmm..I had a read of this thread last night and a bit of a think about 'deeplinking practices' and why they should/shouldn't apply in certain areas. I have never edited anywhere like Shopping or Real Estate, but I was just thinking about Dmoz as a whole and if I was in charge, why different deeplinking practices should apply in different categories.

    I really think it boils down to 1) common sense and 2) providing the surfer with the most relevant sites and the best information concerning the subject matter they're searching for.

    For example in Health. Ok so lets go with 'Mump's.
    Now worldwide I would assume that there are very, very few sites which dedicate themselves totally just to that disease and nothing else. However, there are lots of General health and advice sites/pages which cover Mumps quite extensively (along with a host of other diseases). Now would you list that site once in a General Health category and that would be that ? Or, would you give the surfer the information they are looking for by deeplinking to the very specific and informational section a general health site has ? Common sense would say yes, this site should be deeplinked. As a surfer if I'm looking for all the information I could possibly get my hands on on Mumps then it should be found under the word 'Mumps', and not having me having to root through loads of general health sites in the hope one of them might have some info for me ?

    Education, the same. If I want to do a psychology degree, then I want information on courses and the educational establishments that provide those specific courses. I don't want to be searching through each and every educational university/college one by one. Deeplinking, again solves this problem.

    Kids and Teens : Deeplinking is necessary in order to make things easy to find for younger surfers. As well as the fact that lots of sites, for example, a Hyrdo-electricity site will often include a seperate kids section including quizzes, games puzzles in order to educate through fun activities. Deeplinking again, necessary to the surfer in providing the most informational content.

    Games and Films. I had a think about this one, and again I think it comes under the same scenario. I want information on 'Forrest Gump' then the most relevant information about that film should be the first thing as I see as a surfer. The biggest database on the net with information on films is IMBD, a LOT of listings yes, it does have Dmoz wise. However, I as a surfer am looking for 'Forrest Gump' info. If IMDB has relevant and useful information for me on this film then that's all I need to know and it won't be the only site listed there with info for me either. I don't think it would bother me too much as a surfer that IMDB also has listings elsewhere for other films too. Same applies for Games.

    Adult, I'm not getting into but I would think that the overall general theory is the same as above. Providing the surfer with what they are searching for.

    Then there's Shopping. Well, I don't actually think we're talking about specific useful information there. I think we're now talking in terms of Sales, with relevant information now taking a back seat to product marketing.

    If Deeplinking were allowed in Shopping, can you imagine would would happen if I typed in the word 'Forrest Gump' ?? There would be 1000's of results come up. All with very little real information to give me, repetitive in the extreme and an 'add to cart' next to every single one. Can you imagine ?? :eek:

    Another worry of course would be how would you keep track of them all ? Monthly stock changes ? Discontinued products ? etc etc.. While the first 4 or 5 cats I've mentioned that deeplinking is generally accepted all these deeplinks are generally very static in nature. I don't think the same applies in Shopping concerning individual products. Products come and go, one day featured on the first page, a few weeks later just listed in general and a few weeks after that possibly discontinued and no longer existing as a link. The URL's would be all over the place and with 100's, if not 1000's to keep track of.. well I think you'd be asking far too much of a volunteer editor.

    That is why, I think deeplinking practices should be category specific and not across the board.
     
    shygirl, May 27, 2006 IP
  12. LaCabra

    LaCabra Goats R Us

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    #52
    well I guess i'll have to wait for a PM or something for my question about myrecipesource.com. :( ... I wish dmoz had some sort of interface that would let us query against your submitted sites so that you could at least know if something was wrong or whether the category in question is a little bogged down with entries. Submit and forget seems to be the best advice. Anyways I'm unsubscribing from this thread - thanks for those who helped.
     
    LaCabra, May 27, 2006 IP
  13. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #53
    According to at least some of your fellow editors, deeplinking IS allowed in Shopping and everywhere else. The fact that you and certain other editors believe it isn't allowed merely highlights the problem - that's NOT a shot at you - it's a comment on the inadequacy of the current guidelines. If you have a rule that half the editors misunderstand or misinterpret, you obviously don't have a very good rule.
     
    minstrel, May 27, 2006 IP
  14. brizzie

    brizzie Peon

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    #54
    You are technically and theoretically correct minstrel. If you had a really good store selling tennis balls and baby clothes then to list the store at a level covering both types of product would mean top level - and that is unlikely if not impossible. So the relevant parts of the store may be listed in the two relevant categories. Greater diversity and you move into General Merchandise. I gave a previous example about a general jewelery store also selling the biggest diamond in the world. This may get a deeplink listing in the Diamonds category. Reference for editors over the jewelry - Staff - if someone can find the thread then they will see acknowledgement by senior Shopping editors about the theoretical possibility.

    Technically possible and theory are fine. Coming across a Shopping site that qualifies is another thing. And editor discretion - the deeplink is always discretionary is also another thing. In practice and for all intents and purposes it doesn't happen. I would expect any editor thinking about deeplinking a site in Shopping to ask in internal forum and get a range of opinions before doing so, so exceptional would it be.

    You might be right there. Personally I've never had any problem with understanding deeplinking and I've not come across any problems with other editors understanding it in practice when looking at their work. But if there is truly misunderstanding and misinterpretation then it's another thing to add to the list of things that need to be reviewed for clarity.

    Since I am no longer an editor I can't give you a status report. A quick review of the site though and I found an excessive amount of advertising compared to relatively thin descriptions of recipes. And photos of burgers next to dessert recipes (with a note saying no photo available). I'm not saying it isn't listable but if I were reviewing recipe sites then it would not be top of my picks to devote time to reviewing in depth, which is what would be required to deeplink individual recipes. What, about 80-90% advertising compared to 10-20% recipes? I might conclude the site was designed as an advertising vehicle and decide alternatives with more content and less advertising were better additions. Either way it would not be an instant yes and list. To guarantee a quick listing you need a site that screams quality and "must list now". This wasn't it. If current editors feel the same then that is likely to be the reason for the delay.
     
    brizzie, May 27, 2006 IP
  15. shygirl

    shygirl Guest

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    #55
    I don't edit there Minstrel, and so have never read Shopping guidelines much.

    However, I can see the basic logic of not allowing deeplinking there extensively and of going by the premise that multiple listings there should be the exception rather than the rule.

    Also, I should point out that there is obvious confusion over deeplinking between editors as not all of us edit there. Whereas, in my own chosen categories I have of course, studied the guidelines in-depth. If I ever were to edit in Shopping, I would do likewise.

    But perhaps the argument that we're all somehow misinformed, contradicting each other and confused isn't really a good one. A great portion of us don't edit in these areas and to be honest, pay little attention to guidelines in those sections that we don't have much to do with.

    This also is not a dig at you, just a reminder that not all editors will know backwards the rules, guidelines and what consitutes an 'exception' in every single area of Dmoz. It's a big old place.
     
    shygirl, May 27, 2006 IP
  16. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #56
    But what is the logic in having rules for one category that are different - or perceived to be different - from the rules for any other category? And what is the sense in having rules that are not even understood within DMOZ?
     
    minstrel, May 27, 2006 IP
  17. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #57
    I am sure other editors who think that you don't understand deep linking practices, are also as certain that they personally have no problem understanding the guideline. ;)
     
    gworld, May 27, 2006 IP
  18. shygirl

    shygirl Guest

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    #58
    I guess in short, what works well in one category doesn't work well in another ? I've already said why I think deeplinking works well in some areas but probably wouldn't in others.

    I'd have to ask if you might want to condense this down to 'editors who deal with these categories' within Dmoz. Is that what you mean ? Do you think there is lots of confusion between editors who edit in Shopping concerning deeplinking ? Sorry I'm a bit lost what you mean by the logic thing.:confused:

    Personally I have enough to deal with in editing my own bit n bobs without spending hours going through an unrelated area's guidelines with a fine tooth comb. But I would have no hesitation in doing so should I be granted premissions to edit there some day. I'm sure I'd understand the basics, and if I didn't, ask for help once there.
     
    shygirl, May 27, 2006 IP
  19. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #59
    I'm looking at the bigger picture - not just for editors but for non-editors, part of the whole public relations issue which, in my opinion, is a huge gaping vacuum at DMOZ.

    First, DMOZ needs clearly stated and consistent policies that are understood by all editors regardless of where they edit, are applicable to all categories, and are easily seen by non-editors as being consistent and as being consistently applied.

    I don't need to agree with all of the rules that DMOZ applies. I may personally believe that deeplinking is a good thing, or I may decide that it's a bad thing. Either way, it's irrelevant. But if I see DMOZ stating one thing and apparently doing another, I (the generic I) am going to be upset about that and I am going to wonder about how seriously DMOZ takes its own rules and applies them. And yes, I am probably going to start wondering about issues like favoritism and corruption and self-promotion within the DMOZ hierarchy.

    Taking steps toward clarity and consistency in rules AND ensuring that there is clarity and consistency in the application of those rules would go along way to disarming the kinds of criticisms that DMOZ editors complain about.

    You shouldn't need to. That is the point. If you understand the rules for your current category, you should understand the rules for any other category because they will be the same rules.
     
    minstrel, May 27, 2006 IP
  20. shygirl

    shygirl Guest

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    #60
    While I can see what you mean it's very black and white.
    Firstly there are basic guidelines that most definitley do apply across the board. That's why most editors start off in a small category to 'cut their teeth'. Learning the basic editing skills and general principles before working thier way up (if they chose to ) taking on board the finer points as they go along.

    But I think it would be a tall order to apply skills learnt in Kids and Teens, where the overall objective of listings there are to educate, to Shopping categories where the objective of sites there is that of selling/marketing products.

    I don't think that would be possible ? If the same guidleines applied everywhere hmmm, nice idea I suppose but..I'd be in there fresh from K and T's merrily deeplinking away Gucci Handbags and Ipods, and that would cause problems.
    Same if the reverse was applied and I arrived fresh from Shopping and only one listing applicable per site was allowed anywhere in Dmoz. Kids would miss out on educational areas of the web.

    I think there has to be diversity in the way categories are treated, they serve very different purposes in many cases and the guidelines have to reflect that.
     
    shygirl, May 27, 2006 IP
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