Ground Zero Mosque Plans Move Forward After Key Vote (Update3)

Ground Zero Mosque Plans Move Forward After Key Vote (Update3)

By Henry Goldman

Aug. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Plans to build an Islamic cultural center near the World Trade Center site moved forward after New York City’s Landmarks Preservation Commission voted to allow the demolition of a building that would be replaced by a mosque.

The panel denied landmarks status to a long-vacant 152- year-old lower Manhattan building on Park Place, formerly a Burlington Coat Factory department store. The unanimous vote cleared a hurdle for the site to be torn down and the mosque, recreation and cultural center to be built.
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Bin Laden would be real happy to see that happen. Guess what twisted message he will give to all muslims.
They may see it even as a sign that terrorism pays off. BTW, with all the respect to the politicians and the muslims do they know that Islam is not about democracy? Do they know that Islam does not support equal rights?

 

With all the respect to ... Muslims ... do they know Islam is not about ....
Islam does not support equal rights ....

What started out as an informative post and update gets twisted into - not even sure I want to label - an assail of asininity.

First, I am pretty sure a Muslim knows their beliefs, although they may vary depending sect, theocratic leadership, location and or culture, and telling anyone what they believe is never a win-win. They already know what they believe and you're twisting and assumptions are of no use except to further divide rather than define.

Second, you might want to do just a few seconds of scholarly research before espousing selective reactions.

Have you ever studied Islam history, Muslim ideology, or anything resembling a remittance of research beyond the narrow news bits and pundit's snippets?

The Qur'an is but a mere 4/5 the length of the New Testament - you can read it in a single setting probably - if you want to inform, be informed.

Here in the U.S. women voted nationally for the first time on November 2, 1920 ... when did they receive "equal rights" under Muhammad and the teachings of Islam?

I am not defending their particular ideology, theology, or anything else here so to speak; merely, I am trying to impress upon others the need to know the facts before you pretend to be able to purport the facts.

Ground Zero Mosque - okay.

Here in the U.S., we have Christian churches built on land formerly resided upon by a people whom we subjected to genocidal actions and reactionary rhetoric that prompted, approved and propelled these ghastly deeds.

Little Big Horn Cathedral - okay.

We cannot have our liberties and deny them too. That is not to say we simply allow anything or anyone to simply run a muck, but we must be objectively judicious in our policies, priorities and our politics. We must be informed, not mislead, to make decisions that dictate and define our democracy.

This in the greatest nation on Earth; it is because of our diversity, not in spite of it.

Safe Surfing!
®
Rob

 

Interesting to read your perspective, in fact quite agree with most points. But the OP has a point when he says Bin Laden & co. might send a twisted message regarding this to their followers..and egg them on to destroy more such places in America and get mosques built there (& thereby expand Islam in the land of infidels). I have no problems with Muslims and their places of worship but the Islamic fanatics will just relish with glee at such an opportunity to espouse their cause.

 

sar420,

I understand the point attempting to be made by the OP ... but it is never what you say, but how you say it; meaning, we all have a difference of opinion of the message sent and or received - should the variation and plethora of potential possible interpretations be so over-examined, over-analyzed, and so overtly implied be an obstacle to our ability to be rational, thinking, and compassionate people versus reactionary, close-minded troupe of automatic nay-says? We're more objective than that I believe; I hope.

What message are we sending?
We are afraid?
We are xenophobic?
We are intimidated?
We can not see past our rage to be rational?
We can not move forward?

The most poignant, powerful and persuasive points our leaders tried to make after the tragedies on 9/11:
Get on with your lives!
Don't let them think they can keep us down!
Don't let them think we are downtrodden, deflated or detracted from our democratic way of life.

Message? We could all hear the President speak on TV tonight, and we'll all have a different interpretation tomorrow. Heck, two people are reading this right now and have four different opinions

Maybe the message is we can not, will not pretend to forget, but we can propel (move forward); we are a forgiving people able to accept, acknowledge, include, grow, and so much more!

Maybe the message is a big F-U to radicals, regardless of twisted beliefs, that we are not swayed by a small sect of sickos, but are determined to defend our democracy - even to the point of protecting the defamed, the demonized, the defenseless - and not allow its lasting legacy and history of inclusion to become a nation of exclusion and extermination. History has had enough of that!

If we are a "Christian" nation, then I think we need to examine our worldview in correlation to that, not as a coincidence, but maybe even a consequence to that. If that is to be our "moniker", identification, and association ... who is our neighbor? Remember the Samaritan, what neighborly was to him, and what is our lesson from that parable; but then again, we will all read or hear that story and all have a different definition, but it need not divide us.

Personally, I'd much rather see an Episcopal Cathedral built to tell you the truth; but, what harm does it do my beliefs if it is of another system of beliefs so long as it does not pose a threat to anyone's safety, sans their sanity?

Thanks ~ Safe Surfing!
®
Rob

 

Isn't it actually about a mile from "ground zero" and in reality nowhere near it?

I dislike mosques, both from a cultural and architectural perspective. They are breeding grounds for extremism, division and the corruption of children, and they look grotesque. But this building is no more going to be the "ground zero mosque" than any building within a 3 block radius. You do your cause no favours by suggesting that this building is going to be in any way related to "ground zero" by either association or location.

 

st0x:

You're succinct and clear on your points without an exercise in tautology which is best illustrated in your last, most accurate and astute fact - the Mosque will not be built atop the North or South Towers and even a site of "ground-zero" will likely be difficult if not impossible from its vantage point.

So why the big deal then?

Your opening comments, no personal offense intended, are the exact example of the amplification and misapplication of information that illuminate us to what the big deal is ... for all of us to ponder before pointing ...

Your personal taste in architectural design is of no surprise as it is lumped in with your cultural understanding of the intended use of such a structure and is of no real value to the point(s), easily ignored, overlooked and even excused; however, the latter of the matter is again, why the big deal ... "they are breeding grounds for ..." WOW a lot of fervency in a few words with no facts. Sure a few examples among how many others that don't fit the defaming definition?

We are a reactionary society, throughout the world, and our worldviews and opinions are shape from reactions to extreme actions. Labeling, assessing and assuming all law enforcement officials corrupt because of one, or even some, bad officer(s) were caught doing deplorable acts; calling all Germans Nazi's ..., explaining all Muslims as extremists ..., assuming all ... the list is plentifully fed with examples of one's choosing depending on your willingness, wantonness, waywardness of ideals, perception ... The point, and I really do have one, is that we can not be so quick to make such assumptions and associations. Just because someone is an atheist does not make them a satanists; and even though the example is in fact an oxymoron to the letter of the definition, we both probably know many people who believe that very thing; sadly.

Who wins by making a big deal of this then? I cannot fathom any winners in any facet on any side in any way that will stand the test of time.

One Side: Big Headlines Capture Attention with little snippets of snideness supported, if at all, by little factual points.
Other Side: The party of the second part having been injured by party of the first part's words by act, deed or intention, hereby herald and heave usually just as equally inflammatory and injurious remarks splashed with boring, long, nobody reads or listens to because you took too long to be factual ...
Different Side: Blah, whah blah wah woa .... and if you've ever watched "Charlie Brown" some of it just starts sounding like his teacher ...

The point is, again - I really do have one - that it is a distraction from decisions that truly need attention. Certainly I do not imply that it is not an important discussion with imperative decisions needing done, but is it a "front-burner" issue (that really I just proved how much time could be wasted on depending on your perspective), or are there more pressing things that could, would we, should we choose to, need be examined, exhausted, and explicated first? All the while we are arguing, analyzing, and ascribing to our beliefs as we assimilate "knowledge" from (hopefully) various sources, about the Mosque-Yet-Built, what could that time have been spent upon or how could it have helped in other ways?

Pundits want us distracted from the facts - not a big surprise really, I know. Getting distracted is easy; this too, I know. Does that mean that we succumb to the better nature of ourselves and react and act before proving the facts? In the amount of your time I've just stolen reading this ... it's a magic trick of sorts I guess; a slight of slander or meander from reality and mission accomplished ... especially if you get someone to pick up the baton and run with the same, uninformed, biased dialogues inciting others to react and add rhetoric and ... what are we missing?

That's the question and that, my friend, is the point too. What are we being distracted from? What are we destroying in the process? What are we failing to learn along the avenue of not-so-easy answers to life?

Dammit, told ya I get to 'er eventually

Thanks for reading, being honest, and forthright.

Safe Surfing!
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Rob

 

Because people are reactionary and hardly ever look at the facts.

 

Not surprised a "muslim" will come with a statement like yours. Way off reality. Unfortunately.

Do the people from the land of muhammad have equal rights? Why do I have the feeling you will disapper???

 

Best news in a very long time, after the string of depressing xenophobia news from the US and Europe from a week ago.

 

After what this country did in Iraq what is there at ground zero to be proud of as a nation?

 

I can't wait to see the big bronze statue of Osama Bin Laden just at the entrance of it...while we're there, dealing with an absolute no sense...Because, after all, we would never know or see a ground zero in N-Y without him, right?

 

If you are trying to be funny, that is sure a sick way of going about it by stereotyping all Muslims with the OBL brush.

 

Looking at you, one might assume all Muslims were pornographers. Best to lead by example, or quit claiming to be a Muslim while you peddle pornography or commit acts of violence against innocent people.

 

Since I have done neither, it means that you are lying about me. Repeating a lie does not make it true. Quit beating a dead horse, abomination.

 

Is this news confirmed?

 

How much do you charge for back links from XXXDirectory.net?

 

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100803/us_time/08599200843200
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2008432,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-nation-related

 

IMHO allowing an Islamic center in the vicinity of the World Trade Centers and Ground Zero is an affront. Al Queda, a violent kiiling machine and fundamentalist Islamic terrorist group caused the destruction on 9/11. No one else. Violent fundamentalist Muslims exist, thrive, and manage to murder Muslims and non Muslims alike simply because the predominant elements in the Islamic world allow and in fact at times encourage their existance.
Evey time there is an Islamic fundamentalist encouraged outcry against the West and non Muslims (ie cartoons that satirize Mohammed or other examples) non Muslims are killed; the West is threatened, and non fundamentalist elements of the Islamic world simply and quietly enable it. Thereby they encourage and feed it.

It is an affront on the rest of the world. More than that it is a danger.

Even as I find this action an affront on America I can read the passionate defenses of this mosque by thoughtful Americans who describe the beauty, power and wonder of our most basic freedoms. Thomas Friedman wrote an evocative piece about our freedoms. Mayor Bloomberg spoke in the same vein. They are both thoughtful Americans.

Regardless, it is an affront on our people to enable a symbol connected to the Islamic religion which currently and for years simply encourages and enables these killing murderous villains to live and survive.

Somehow I don't recall anyone building any kind of monument to anything connected to Japan in or near Pearl Harbor. Now almost 60 years after that attack I'm still not aware of a monument near Pearl Harbor that in any way is a symbolic acknowledgement of the murderous regime in Japan that not only attacked Pearl Harbor but slaughtered people throughout Asia.

Japan: Great friendly ally. Terrific country now. Nobody though celebrates in any way the former destructive regime.

In this environment nobody should be celebrating a religeon that enables and encourages the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists that continue to kill around the world; muslims and non-muslims. Least of all noone should be enabling this near Ground Zero.

 

EarlPearl:

You rationale is fairly well reasoned, but honestly not entirely convincing.

A place of worship is not a monument; well not always in the sense 'we commemorate the sanction of ....'. If that were the case, there would not be a Japanese Seventh Day Adventist Church in Honolulu Hawaii and a string of other examples in our own and other cultures, including English-speaking places of worship in Japan. Certainly there is no monument attributed to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, nor will you find a replica of 'Big Boy' in Japan honoring the U.S. nuclear attacks in 1945; but both countries embrace and allow places of worship for their former foes. And certainly not to necessarily compare the two events, but we (U.S. and Japan) killed scores more of one another than the number of 9/11 deaths.

When I went to the 50th Anniversary of the D-Day invasion of Normandy in June 1994 Americans, Germans, Japanese, French, Russians, Italians, Turks, Poles, and nationalities throughout our small world gathered to commemorate the 'beginning of the end' to the second 'great war' that pitted the world against itself; we stood shoulder to shoulder, arm in arm, we shed tears together ... not to commemorate atrocities, but to honor our fallen and to show the world, we can move forward.

Do we damn forever, an entire group of people for the actions of a few? Thank goodness we didn't allow the Catholics or other Christian denominations, any places of worship all over the globe after they slaughtered millions throughout the Crusades and afterward. What an affront that would be to our sensibilities! I'm certainly not picking on those of us who self-identify as Christians, but being realistic, honest and taking inventory of our own stock before trying to assess or assign an alternate view/religion and its entire peoples an eternal sentence of damnation.

To follow that mentality, why do we even allow foreign Embassies here or have them overseas - let's close up the borders and go it alone ... fathom that for a moment. Isolationism is not an option. We tried that after the first Great War, ignoring the world events, pretending they didn't affect our ability to lead lives within acceptable levels of efficacy, and assuming we could put our heads in the sand without consequence; coincidentally - spoiler alert - that failed us too. So we ended up being 'drawn' into the worldwide conflict and proved to the world, and most importantly to ourselves, that the American spirit could not be downtrodden, could not be dampened, and would not be desecrated.

In "this environment" no one is asking anyone to celebrate the Islamic religion any more than they are asking anyone to celebrate Catholic mass; but in "this environment" as a result of our lengthy, lifetime, and laudable experiences and accounts, we are being asking for objectivity, honesty, and reality. The mosque in Elizabethtown KY is no more an affront to me than the millions of mosque's around the world. Radicals of any faith is an affront, most especially to their own alleged faith and misguided allegiances, and should not be tolerated.

For lack of better words, the "west" dissolved the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI, but when I was in Turkey, I had no problem finding a place of worship right down the street from the Islamic Mosque - how dare they allow such an affront, equating to a monument of their own destruction! Really?

A mosque in NYC is no more a danger to us than a cathedral in Tokyo is a danger to them. Will radicals, those outside the mainstream thinking and practice of their own theological or ideological group, be able to pose a threat to others? Absolutely! Are all Christians around the world to be placed on a watch-list because a fanatic blows up an abortion clinic (somehow 'thou shall not kill' is okay or rationalized differently because we conveniently interpret it to be to meeting our own desires, needs and beliefs? hardly) somewhere? Are we convinced and proud that the internment of Japaneses-Americans during WWII was righteous, even while many of their sons and daughters served in the Armed Forces - as Americans?

I understand the passionate position many take in blocking the building of the mosque. I also remember that we are a land of religious freedoms; that is one of the main reasons for our founding. I also understand that we can not allow freedoms to be diluted based on fear. I understand that we need to understand more about those different from us and not simply go through our lives with blinders on.

I lost friends and colleagues in the Pentagon attack on 9/11, but I really do not think Lieutenant General Maude, Mrs. Gibbs, and others would want their fellow Americans using their memories or deaths as a reason for diluting the very ideals of democracy that we have come so far to achieve. Avenge their deaths? Certainly. Abuse their memories? Please, no.

115 nations lost people on 9/11 - are they all debating pulling out of the UN in NYC as a result of a mosque being built in the vicinity? Are they even discussing and debating this? Or are they moving on with their lives, ever reverent and respectful of this tragedy still and still on the lookout, and taking care of more pressing issues? In all the time we have been arguing about whether or not to allow this mosque to be built and allowing ourselves to be distracted, what has gotten past our attention? We voted two weeks ago for bankruptcy and financial protection of firearms manufacturers in the U.S. ... yes, another stupid bailout; and, last week, we voted not to fund additional health care costs of those affected in the rescue, recovery and clean-up after the 9/11 attacks. Is our focus and attention is its right place? I do not believe so.

Build the mosque, move on, and get to business of recovery and sustaining our democratic way of life, not diluting and distracting our attention from equally and more pressing matters. Is it an affront? To some it may be, especially if they only get the snippets and fail to see the fuller picture of what is being left undone, versus what is being done.
I enjoyed your perspective and applaud your passions; hoping I have not been an affront to your ability to be objective.

Safe surfing!

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Rob

 

Rob: no problem. Its my opinion. btw I totally agree w/your recent blog piece on 8/5. Congress should be "horsewhipped" IMHO for voting down health care aid to the hero's from 9/11.

If Al Queda and other related groups weren't supported, accomodated, enabled by the Islamic world now, I wouldn't have a problem with the Mosque. Frankly, the West is a lot more respective of Mosques than the terrorists who willy nilly blow them up while they are full of worshippers. On a slightly different vein at an earlier point in the Iraq war, after the US had defeated the Iraq military...at a later point Shiite Al Sadrists were battling the US while hiding in a Mosque. The US could have blown it up to kingdom kong. The US didn't.

The Islamic world, its nations, its national and religeous leaders accomodate the killing terrorists. They accomodate them while they slaughter other Muslims. Why should we be so accomodating when Islam itself doesn't do sh!t?