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Greece is collapsing

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Spoiltdiva, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. #1
    For years Greece has been living beyond it's means.Now to get out of it's present difficulties it needs to borrow 170 billion dollars from the E.U. As a condition of the loan Greece has been and is adopting severe austarity measures.These are unpopular and have caused rioting in the streets.Pitched battles vis a vis police and union members are a daily occurance.
    Many people have lost their jobs as the economy shrinks especially in the public sector,as the government seeks to reduce payout in the form of saleries.
    Things are getting bad,for example if you drive you will be paying $10 a gallon.People are now standing in line for food as many are without funds.

    Social problems are increasing also,violent crimes have increased 100% in the last year,suicides are up 40% and hospital admissions are up 28% as people are feeling ill due to stress.

    How could it all have come down to this? It seems amazing that this could happen in a modren developed country.Who was managing the shop? Wern't there any red flags,how could things have been allowed to get so bad?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
    Spoiltdiva, Feb 10, 2012 IP
  2. boblord666

    boblord666 Member

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    #2
    Caused by the GFC (caused by banker greed) and by successive governments lying about Greece's financial situation. "This had enabled Greek governments to spend beyond their means, while hiding the actual deficit from the EU overseers."

    Ordinary Greek citizens now have to pay the price of course and they don't like it. Who can blame them? They didn't cause the GFC and they didn't know their government was doing the wrong thing. The citizens also don't like another country telling them what to do - in this case it is Germany. They are pissed and rightly so.
     
    boblord666, Feb 10, 2012 IP
  3. Mikaël2

    Mikaël2 Member

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    #3
    We are witnessing the failure of democracy.
     
    Mikaël2, Feb 10, 2012 IP
  4. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Notable Member

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    #4
    Not so much a failure of democracy,but more a failure of capitalism.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Feb 10, 2012 IP
  5. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #5
    [​IMG]

    /shrug. Stock market is up 20% in the last 6 months. Seems that killing Osama, Al Awlaki, and various other idiots worldwide was good for the US economy, despite what is happening in Greece. Of the middle eastern nations that haven't spiraled into bloody civil war, the rulers of the remaining Arab states are scared sh*tless of being killed by their own people, whom they have oppressed for decades. They are far too busy trying to stay alive to be worried about terrorizing their neighbors. We throw the democrats out of power in 8 months, get our deficit under control, and it might just be the best decade ever.


    Your fantasy gives me an idea for a MMORPG though. Guys like you who have no luck getting any satisfaction in the real world could sign up for my online game where you could actually succeed in your ambitions. It would be some kind of post-apocalytic world based on the state of Saudi Arabia. You could control the people of the world with a religion you make up yourself. You get to torture women, command the religious police, kill and maim people, and throw big drug crazed parties filled with homosexuals and hookers. Sign up now, and get a free fluffing glove and a bottle of KY. It would be just like home(if you were actually part of the Saudi royal family).
     
    Obamanation, Feb 10, 2012 IP
  6. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #6
    [​IMG]

    Greece isn't gonna collapse anytime soon . I have quite an lot of Greek friends and although they're angry they're not desperate . There are more extreme cases then usual but it's not by far the Armageddon you're describing .
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
    ApocalypseXL, Feb 11, 2012 IP
  7. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #7
    I have to agree with this, though does anyone really care if Greek economy does collapse other than the Greeks? I think what has most people concerned is the fall of the Euro and the European economy.

    Greece should just quite trading in Euros and go back to the drachma. I think Nazi Germany did something similar to get out of their WWI debt. Europe and the IMF would have to take a one time write off of the billions of bailout dollars they have already sent to Greece, but at least then Merkle wouldn't have to tell the Greeks how to conduct their finances and the Europeans wouldn't have to continue to funnel billions of dollars into the Greek economy providing welfare to a government and people who absolutely do not want to change their spending habits.

    Once off the tit of state welfare, the Greeks would be allowed to hit rock bottom and I think we would all be amazed at the pace the resilient Greek people would collectively pull their heads out of their asses and become productive. Even the most hard core Union thugs who are setting things on fire would realize it is useless to try and get water from a stone. The continuous promise of bailouts and safety nets are actually breeding the behavior we are seeing. Its bad for Europe and it is most definitely bad for the Greeks.
     
    Obamanation, Feb 11, 2012 IP
  8. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #8
    The most likely failure scenario is that Greece will make like Iceland and let the bank crash . Out of the ashes the economy takes flight and quite fast , that might happen near summer then Greece would have it megatourism to get it back on track . The only problem is Greek pride and some legal mechanism but both can be taken care off .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Feb 11, 2012 IP
  9. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #9
    The pride being the bigger of the two problems there.
     
    Obamanation, Feb 11, 2012 IP
  10. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #10
    Meh , Greeks are always proud and stubborn but they usually come to their senses when it really needed .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Feb 11, 2012 IP
  11. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #11
    Congrats to the Greek Parliament. They managed to pass some budget cuts and austerity measures. Apparently Athens paid the price, though, as rioters from the Greek Communist Party and Unions set the city on fire.

    [​IMG]

    I imagine if Obama ever gets serious about addressing the 1.5 Trillion dollar deficit he both created and promised to cut in half in his first term, the Occupy Wall St. people will be doing the same thing. Then who would vote for him?

    I guess he'd still have the black vote.

     
    Obamanation, Feb 13, 2012 IP
  12. robjones

    robjones Notable Member

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    #12
    Yes, exactly, and when my car doesnt start, it disproves the theory of internal combustion.
     
    robjones, Feb 13, 2012 IP
  13. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #13
    how would you know anything about democracy? you have shown us you are a mindless fan boy of the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia and want that family ultimately to rule Iran and Palestine. The murderous Gay Royal Family is the exact opposite of democracy. I'm sure Palestinians and Iranians find your fanboy fantasies very appealing. Go visit Iran and spread your beliefs. Once they catch you, you'll be praying you were in a democracy with a rule of laws.
     
    earlpearl, Feb 13, 2012 IP
  14. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #14
    There is a terrific book called "Boomerang - Travels in the New Third World" by Michael Lewis. Find it on Amazon and search the book for the word "Greece". Lewis paints a horrible picture of that country where it is not just the government, it is systemic to the entire population. Start reading at page 45.

    The Greek government is bloated and corrupt. Last year they took that first $157 Billion bailout and used it to make the government more bloated and corrupt. There was some public armwaving from Greece claiming that they were paying bondholders, and some journalists believed it, but the truth is that it is a disaster.

    The retirement age in Greece is 55 for men and 50 for women. At that age citizens receive generous handouts from the government. Lewis writes "it is simply assumed that anyone working for the government is meant to be bribed". Government officials suspend the payment of ALL taxes during an election year to help win reelection. ALL TAXES! In other years, if the tax collector shows up at your door, a simple bride makes him go away. If you are wealthy, your bribes go much higher up the food chain and you keep your money is in a non-Greek bank.

    The situation in Greece today is that German officials are walking the streets of Greece in order to collect taxes. It sometimes gets violent when a bribe is rejected.

    Greece has no Congressional budget office. The government just makes up whatever numbers they want, for their own purposes.

    Lewis also writes: "Tax fraud... is so common in Greece it isn't worth writing about" p.49
    "The only Greeks who paid their taxes were were the ones who could not avoid doing so - the salaried employees of corporations who had their taxes withheld from their paychecks" p.50

    About government scandals - "there are simply too many. They could fill libraries, never mind a book" p.54

    "the epidemic of lying and cheating and stealing makes any sort of civic life impossible"

    "The culture of the Greek economy is collectivist, but the country, in spirit, is... every man for himself. Into this system investors had poured hundreds of billions of dollars... [which] had pushed the country over the edge into total moral collapse" p.55
     
    Corwin, Feb 15, 2012 IP
  15. browntwn

    browntwn Prominent Member

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    #15
    Democracy is not a cure for stupidity. Spend more than you have and you too can end up bankrupt.
     
    browntwn, Feb 15, 2012 IP
  16. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    Awesome. Sounds so familiar. My friend just got his house, which is upside down to the tune of about 120% ltv, refinanced on the Obama program. 4.2% 30 year fixed, no fees 120% LTV. The lender/broker had to make the loan and eat the fees because of new federal regulations meant to help the poor. Between his wife and he, they pull down in excess of 300k a year. Its pure comedy.

    Obama just proposed another bump in the gubment subsidy for low emissions vehicles, bringing the total up to 10k per vehicle I believe. As an example, the GM/Chevy Volt would come from its list price of 42k down to a more affordable 32k for the sake of the environment. A recent study found the average income families that purchase the Volt is 176k a year. Yet another tax subsidy for people who don't need them, funded on the backs of the 99%, or more accurately with money borrowed from China.

    Every time this buffoon pokes the government's nose in some new industry, billions of taxpayer dollars get sucked up by people who are being taught how to work the system. I'll tell you this. If the EV subsidy really does jump to a refundable 10k tax refund, I'm going to buy a fleet of street legal golf carts at 3k a piece and take the year off thanks to Uncle Sam/China. AT some point the only way to remain in the middle class will be to work for or exploit government programs.


    More reason to be pissed off this year than ever before. More reason to get involved, and I'm not talking about the US equivalent of the Greeks who love Greece just the way it is. Here is a guy who understands what is going on.
    [video=youtube;xivssxZYNjA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xivssxZYNjA[/video]
     
    Obamanation, Feb 15, 2012 IP