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Google Rank & Page Rank

Discussion in 'Google' started by a389951l, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. #1
    I am a newbie but I am way confused. Before the last google pagerank update, my site www.best-digital-photos.com was ranked anywhere from 5 to 12 for keyword: digital photo tips. :)

    Now, nowhere to be seen. If fact, none of my pages are listed for any of my keywords. My site is still listed using site:www....
    SEMrush
    I do not get it- :confused: . My page rank goes from 0 to 5. Backlinks from 1 to 24 and my site disappears in terms of keyword searches.

    Any insight would be nice.


    Thanks...
     
    a389951l, Mar 19, 2004 IP
    SEMrush
  2. digitalpoint

    digitalpoint Overlord of no one Staff

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    #2
    Well you are still ranked..l although no where to be of any use (you are ranked #610). The best thing to do is just keep doing what you are doing (getting links and adding content), and it should come back. There is no "magic formula" (unless you are doing blatantly "bad" things and they figured it out). As long as you aren't doing things like cloaking, using hidden text, links, etc. you will probably come back at some point. Just keep getting links.

    - Shawn
     
    digitalpoint, Mar 19, 2004 IP
  3. Owlcroft

    Owlcroft Peon

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    #3
    This matter of the relation between "Page Rank" and actual search placement is a curious one.

    In the little sandbox in which I play (as reckoned by ODP category and close kin), the highest PR is, I believe, 5, and almost no one has that: the "heavy hitters" in this niche are PR 4. (I say "I believe" because I don't run M$ products, and so have to deduce PR from the little graphics in the Google Directory listings.)

    There are a fair number of PR4 sites in my niche. Yet the one site that invariably comes up first in a search for the keywords (and there can't be much variation of those in this niche) is a PR3.

    Moreover, some of the PR4 sites are brand-new--not even complete--and so amateurish that they cannot have many back links.

    It drives one nuts.
     
    Owlcroft, Mar 19, 2004 IP
  4. compar

    compar Peon

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    #4
    The concept held by so many people is that PR is a major determinant of the sites place in the SERPs. This just isn't the case.

    PR is a pure mathematical number based on the sharing of PR values between all the sites you link to and who link to you. That's all it is. Just a damn number.

    Now what Google tries to do with it's SERPs is return the most relevant information or site. How can they judge relevance from a number? The answer is that the cannot.

    So in addition to the PR calculated from a link their algorithms also calculate a relevance value for the link. It is mainly this relevance value that determines the place of the site in the SERP.

    How do they calculate this relevance value. Well as far as we can tell they calculate it today from the anchor text used with each link. Maybe in the future they will use other techniques like the theme of the page that the link comes from, but today it appears that the main driver is anchor text.

    Now as to your site dropping after it got a PR rating. There may be two possible explanations. The first is that Google always gives a new page extra attention or emphasis. If they have not yet updated the links I think they may even place all their evaluation on the on-page factors like title, heading and content. So if you page is reasonably optimized for these factors it will show up well in the SERPs while Google figures out the linking factors.

    Once Google has checked and evaluated all the links them the page becomes part of the normal population and has to compete on that basis. You say you have 24 backlinks. That is not many. How many links do the sites that rank in the top ten have? Also what anchor text are your links using. Does the anchor text contain your prime keywords?

    So get more links. Don't worry about PR. Just make sure that you are using the right anchortext.
     
    compar, Mar 20, 2004 IP
  5. Owlcroft

    Owlcroft Peon

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    #5
    Now here's a curious anomaly about results placement that I just discovered: the difference between words and phrases.

    I have always considered my keyword terms to be "science fiction" (the phrase) and fantasy. Only rarely at most will the loose word fiction be found floating about anywhere on my site.

    Now if I search on "science fiction" fantasy, Google returns me at #60. But if I search on just science fiction fantasy (no phrase quotation marks), I am returned as #31. That is a mighty big differential, with--so far as I can see--no logic.

    Any ideas what's going on there?

    Incidentally, though search engines were far from my naive thoughts when I created the site, I guess it didn't hurt that the very name of the site is its keywords: sure helps in keeping backlink anchor text relevant.
     
    Owlcroft, Mar 20, 2004 IP
  6. digitalpoint

    digitalpoint Overlord of no one Staff

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    #6
    That is odd...

    Google treats them differently... because "science fiction" needs to be the string, while science fiction does not... Just means the page needs to contain those two words. You will rank higher (typically) for searches with the quotes because you have less competition (since more pages will contain the two words than the exact phrase).

    In your case, I have no idea why it's opposite though.

    - Shawn
     
    digitalpoint, Mar 20, 2004 IP
  7. compar

    compar Peon

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    #7
    It may not be an issue, but isn't the proper way to search for that combination "science fiction" +fantasy. Try that and see if it makes any difference.

    And what happens if you search for "science fiction fantasy"? I assume the three words are in that exact order somewhere on your site?
     
    compar, Mar 20, 2004 IP
  8. Owlcroft

    Owlcroft Peon

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    #8
    Curioser and curioser . . . .

    First, in the last two or three hours, Google slid me down (under science fiction fantasy) from #31 to #41--and this in a realm where nobody's pages change that much or that often.

    Meanwhile: searching on "science fiction" +fantasy and on "science fiction" fantasy produce identical results: #86. There is no point in my searching for "science fiction fantasy" because those words do not ever form such a string on my site (or, I reckon, anyone else's in this field).

    I have just wrapped up changing all outbound links on my pages to php-hidden except for the explicit return links I have on a particular page for that purpose. I was astounded at how many links I had, especially to the book services (like ABE).

    By the way, the php-hide scheme for outbound links given elsewhere on this site will not work as shown for URLs that contain ampersands, as many do; I will post an explicit comment to that thread, with the needed trifling fix.

    Is there any chance that Google penalizes sites that so hide any outbound links?

    Also: do URLs in either Form <input> statements or in <img> calls count as "links"?
     
    Owlcroft, Mar 20, 2004 IP
  9. hans

    hans Well-Known Member

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    #9

    if i were a google bot - MAY BE i would feel insulted by finding the first piece of real META tags on someting like line 246 ... !!! i am sure Google bot is hungry for instant food considedring the mass of pages to crawl

    there may be NO rules about how many PAGES or LINES of NON meta you are allowed to be placed BEFORE meta tags .. MAY BE .. may be there are rules - internal within Gogle and Yahoo - based on time LIMIT for each page before time out or DUMP of page occurs .. or even general rules for www by W3C or so ..

    there may well be internal rules by G+Y about how far to search until REAL text either starts or page may be DUMPED by bot ..

    finally keep in mind - its a matter of time - even if its only a few ms or a few dozen miliseconds for a single page .. multiplied by a few billion pages to be searched many times a month again and again .. day after day ...

    so .,.

    may be you just may want to try to put all your javascript either exernal in a neat js library or at least BELOW all meta tags AND below TITLE tag ..

    just the last part before </head>

    also

    if you are in a high competition area of publication ..

    you may improve by changing your title from

    ---------- snip currently yourur <title> is

    Digital Photo Tips and Tricks for your Digital Camera

    ------------ snap

    into something VERY near

    ------------ snip

    Digital Photo Tips and Digital Photo Tricks

    ---------- snap

    if you want the word digital camera also in SE highly ranked - then you may want to publish a RELVANT age with just that title accordig to real text and content of THAT OTHER digital camera page.

    as to digital photo tips an dtricks - it is per se obwvous ( with exception of scanned NON-digital photos ) that most digital photos are noadays coming from digital cameras.

    why the change ?

    here the mathematics ( my own philosophy based on my own experience during past years ) :

    Digital Photo Tips and Digital Photo Tricks

    gives you double relevancy of your title tag in THAT keyword Digital Photo and improves rank.

    plus one relevancy for tips and another one for tricks

    simplified - its like getting 5/7 wight-factor-points for your title as multiplying factor instead of 3/7 for YOUR version of title ..

    may be
    i am wrong - may be you try and i am right ..

    since NOW you are OUT - you have NOTHING to lose but ALL to win ! good luck !!!

    "... for your Digital Camera"

    which may NOT appear to be first priority in keyword FOR YOU on THAT ONE and same page !

    hence approx 50% of title by VOLUME ( words or characters ) is single relevant - OTHER 50% NON-relevant to YOUR mentioned keywords ..
    google common words like and do NOT count for Y they DO !!
    it also makes sense and is correct grammar and may be also correct style.

    same procedure in H1 and description.

    but wait a minute .....

    !!!!! i did NOT see any H1 title tag in your entire page -- it starts with a H2 tag .. on line 282 ... !

    that should never happen !! and never be - there is different importance to

    domain name
    <title> tag
    H1
    H2
    alt
    text
    link text
    folder and file name within a URL

    for good SE - such as Google .. Yahoo etc ..

    hence you are missing important part H1 - if the characters are simply TOO large - and that was reason to start with H2 .. just adjust in CSS the size of title-font .. to whatever fits into your page.

    and you shold be again in the top ten or where ever you belong with good content


    just try and you see and get feedback form Google !

    free Google page-submission

    http://www.google.com/addurl.html

    of single apges may assure that google is coming back soon - UNLESS googlebot is back as a daily guest on your site anyway .. :)
     
    hans, Mar 22, 2004 IP
  10. I. Brian

    I. Brian Business consultant

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    #10
    I'd estimate that you're around #75 now.
     
    I. Brian, Mar 22, 2004 IP
  11. Owlcroft

    Owlcroft Peon

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    #11
    In fact, by cleaning up PR-leakage via outbound links to non-reciprocating sites (by hiding those links), I vaulted overnight to #24, where I still am today. (There is another thread--"Ethics Question"--on that whole topic.)
     
    Owlcroft, Mar 22, 2004 IP
  12. compar

    compar Peon

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    #12
    No you didn't. Pure coincidence. That's like saying I got out of the left side of the bed this morning rather than the right and I won $100 on a lottery ticket. Ergo you win more money on the lottery by getting out of bed on the left side.

    And one more time, unless you hid 100s of links it will have no discernible impact on your PR.
     
    compar, Mar 22, 2004 IP
  13. Owlcroft

    Owlcroft Peon

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    #13
    I can't believe you say that. Do you really think it takes Google weeks, or even days, to catch major changes on sites? This is scarcely the first or the second or the third time that I have seen immediate response to major changes, and my casual, intermittant perusal of other SE-related sites suggests that Google's current rapid response has for some time been an acknowledged fact of life in the seo community.

    And yes, I did hide many hundreds of links. Just links to ABE/CommissionJunction were probably about 1300 in number. And there were probably 500 to 600 others, maybe a deal more (I'm not sure how many Amazon links I had). So of course I was hemorrhaging PR.

    I do not comprehend why this stubborn resistance to the clear and indisputable fact that huge serp jumps do not occur by chance, and to assert that a huge serp jump coincident with a major site change is "Pure coincidence" seems bizarre.
     
    Owlcroft, Mar 22, 2004 IP
  14. tycoonjo

    tycoonjo Banned

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    #14
    outbound links are good as long as you can count them on your fingers
     
    tycoonjo, Jun 13, 2006 IP
  15. Goru

    Goru Peon

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    #15
    dear google recently lunched google panda effect for the duplicate's content so, firstly you have to check your content and make some changes in your sites. you have also make blog related to the sites and promote that blog too. It will work defiantly.  
     
    Goru, Aug 2, 2011 IP
  16. wrightya

    wrightya Member

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    #16
    build links!!:eek:
     
    wrightya, Dec 4, 2011 IP
  17. jhardy2008

    jhardy2008 Peon

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    #17
    jhardy2008, Dec 4, 2011 IP
  18. golfpro1

    golfpro1 Peon

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    #18
    If your site is nowhere to be seen for your keyword but you can still find it with site: then the good news is it has not been removed from the index, it could be undergoing a Google Dance, where it fluctuates until Google finds a better place for it, if you are sure you have not placed your links on someplace that could penalise it, continue what you were doing, and your site should come back. The thing with new sites is often they rank well but go much lower when they undergo a Google Dance, especially if the niche is competitive
     
    golfpro1, Dec 5, 2011 IP
  19. iridiumsuite

    iridiumsuite Peon

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    #19
    There are lots of factors on which Google decides the Pagerank of the website of which most is the backlinks that target to yours, but that should be the quality one..
    It is good to perform Ethical white hat SEO techniques to do that..
     
    iridiumsuite, Dec 5, 2011 IP
  20. tanerokutan

    tanerokutan Peon

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    #20
    tanerokutan, Dec 5, 2011 IP