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Get out of the Copywriting forum!

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by latoya, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. marketjunction

    marketjunction Well-Known Member

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    #21
    Right. But I was writing that with the common writer in mind. The average writer (regardless of writing talent) isn't the best marketer and definitely isn't that good with marketing online.

    Therefore, it can actually be a negative to continue the blog. You certainly can though.

    But, the idea was geared toward a writer who wants to make a little extra income and try to build a list of clients without relying solely on forum posts and other advertising.SEMrush
     
    marketjunction, Aug 7, 2008 IP
    SEMrush
  2. internetauthor

    internetauthor Peon

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    #22
    Excellent advice, Latoya! (But what else would we expect from you? :) )

    One more reason to get outside the copywriting forum: you might actually learn something about what it is all these clients you so desperately seek actually DO. :)

    Rebecca
     
    internetauthor, Aug 7, 2008 IP
  3. emasaa

    emasaa Peon

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    #23
    This is one of the best articles I have read on dp. I actually had never been on this section of dp.

    I decided to start writing for others just to get some constant income. Now with a few , actually more than enough clients, I have decided to stop writing for others and learn as much as I can about developing my own sites.

    It's actually a business decision. All companies try to cut out the middleman to reduce their costs. As an article writer once you do the article, your client goes on to find other ways to monetise your article. My idea was, why not do the same? If you are as good as you claim, get the time to do short term work for paying your bills and then start working on your long term projects.

    So cut down my writing gigs and started reading more on dp on what the experts are doing. Never heard of the flipping thing and I just love it.
     
    emasaa, Aug 8, 2008 IP
  4. resto

    resto Peon

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    #24
    Form a perspective of someone looking to hire someone once and a while to write stuff.

    A website or a blog is very important. It gives someone an idea of what kind of writer someone is and what kind of style they have.

    Especially for a big job no one wants to hire someone for a bunch of pages if they don’t know how they write.

    And the “I will send you some samples”, that just doesn’t look good to get a few sentences in a email. It is a lot better when you have some good material laid out on a well designed page.

    You can get a wordpress site for free.
     
    resto, Aug 8, 2008 IP
  5. LWS

    LWS Well-Known Member

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    #25
    A writers destiny is to write 1000 articles or else he is not a writer ...
    when he has 1000 articles on his blog Google will send him a lot of traffic :)

    Isn't that the truth?

    So why sell your 1000 articles for few thousands of dollars if you can earn few thousands every year out of it and then start to learn marketing and become a good marketer also :)
     
    LWS, Aug 8, 2008 IP
  6. marketjunction

    marketjunction Well-Known Member

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    #26
    Well, one of my sites has about 20 articles and earns thousands every year for me, so not sure about this 1,000-article destiny of yours.

    Kind of reminds of the people that will spend a billion hours (day in and day out) to try and make AdSense money. You'll see them churning out articles like there's no tomorrow for that $1 a day.

    But not everyone is a great marketer and not everyone can learn to do it well. Some people are better served doing certain things.

    At the end of the day it's about how much money you made for the amount of time you had to give up. Your time is a precious commodity and shouldn't be given away cheaply. It's sad how people are so willing to spend time to save money. That's how the poor stay poor.

    But, I'm going off topic here I'm sure. :D
     
    marketjunction, Aug 8, 2008 IP
  7. LWS

    LWS Well-Known Member

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    #27
    Yeah, but I am sure in this destiny of mine :)
    I am only learnng how to become a good marketer now, I made 1000 graphics, do you think it was a waste of time?
    Now I must learn marketing of course because I have the adsense ctr of 1% - 2% only :D
    I would like to invest $100 in my site promotion but I simply don't know how :D ... must learn trough mistakes ... or you will give me a nice advice :)

    yeah, sorry, I also went in off topic
     
    LWS, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  8. marketjunction

    marketjunction Well-Known Member

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    #28
    Possibly, yes.

    But only you can answer that.

    It all depends on what your time is worth. And what you've actually accomplished.
     
    marketjunction, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  9. latoya

    latoya Active Member

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    #29
    If you'd learned marketing from the beginning you probably could have made fewer graphics and made more money. Same thing applies to your 1000 articles suggestion. When you're done writing all those articles you still have to figure out how to convince people to pay money for them.
     
    latoya, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  10. marketjunction

    marketjunction Well-Known Member

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    #30
    Most people incorrectly think that the more one does something the better one gets.

    This isn't the case. That line of thinking assumes the person is doing the right stuff to begin with.

    If you're doing the wrong stuff, you're simply solidifying a poor foundation.
     
    marketjunction, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  11. LWS

    LWS Well-Known Member

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    #31
    "If you're doing the wrong stuff, you're simply solidifying a poor foundation."
    Yeah, that's true, but making graphics or writing articels on your blog is not the wrong stuff ;)


    I wanted to become a good designer, make nice football wallpapers ... for that I needed experience ... of course I still suck at it :D

    the first question was how to make money from writing ...
    I am wrong because I ansvered the other question ... how to become a good writer :)
    so sorry, my mistake!
     
    LWS, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  12. LWS

    LWS Well-Known Member

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    #32
    Repeating is the mother of all knowledge :)
     
    LWS, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  13. edzachary

    edzachary Active Member

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    #33
    I've been writing in areas of my expertise for years. I have rarely found a market on DP that was worth my time, though. This isn't a forum for legitimate writers to find work.

    And speaking as a web developer with more than 30 operating sites that constantly looks for fresh writers I am YET to ever find a writer here who took the time to investigate what I do, what opportunities I have and then pitch me their services.

    That's just not what this community is about and, frankly, I don't think real writers frequent here. It is a waste of their time.
     
    edzachary, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  14. LWS

    LWS Well-Known Member

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    #34
    few minutes before my friend came under my window and said "we put a celtic wallpaper from your site on our desktop at work, people like it" ...

    it means a lot :)
    and it gives the fuel to learn more, like marketing methods or something ... naaaaah, making even better graphics, yeah

    making a lot of graphics could never ever be a waste of time, just like writing a lot is simply a common thing for a writter ... I have a website with 3000+ pages to promote now... of course, I have a partner, but she also makes a lot of graphics, even better then me, hehe ... so no marketing methods yet, but 72 000 visits in 1 month of a dead season is quite good I think :)

    I realy don't underestimate marketing ...
    it is my wish also that I learn to do that thing that marketers do, invest here, collect profit there :)

    I would be greatfull if someone tells me where to get more UK targeted visits, for now I've found only search engines and google images as main resource of traffic ...

    go for "liverpool fc wallpaper" on google search and you have 1000goals on 1'st page ... isn't that the wallpaper marketing itself?

    so that's why I think that writers should write, get indexed, write, get indexed ... not like robots of course, they will learn other things on the way :)
     
    LWS, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  15. epn

    epn Member

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    #35
    Hi webgal.

    Your PDF - is it about website flipping or, as it appears to
    be when I visited your site, about installing wordpress?

    If you have anything on flipping, please say so.

    Thanks.
     
    epn, Aug 9, 2008 IP
  16. internetauthor

    internetauthor Peon

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    #36
    A broad statement...I assure you there are "real" writers here. Your definition of a "real writer" might be a bit too narrow to encompass all the different individuals who find portions of this forum at least very worthwhile and lucrative.
     
    internetauthor, Aug 10, 2008 IP
    lightless likes this.
  17. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

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    #37
    Sure it is. Legitimate writers can work in any number of niches. I'd certainly consider myself a "legitimate" writer. I specialize in PR and business writing, and there are plenty of clients here willing to pay for my time and services. I know the same is true of writers in other niches here.

    They're not "allowed" to simply randomly PM people to pitch their services. If they did, we'd give them an infraction or ban them for PM spam. The good business that goes on here at DP (on the writing front) most often comes through referrals - not advertised gigs or random pitches.

    And keep in mind - those writers who do know how to market themselves well likely already have a solid client base, regular work, or regular referrals coming in where they don't need to cold pitch a lot of webmasters (or they know where to find even higher paying gigs without the risk of getting themselves banned).

    Even when they do want to go that route, there are tens of thousands of webmasters here, so the chance that they'd happen to stumble across you is slim - especially given that you only have a few hundred posts (meaning your posts, sig links, etc. where they'd learn more about you aren't terribly visible yet in the grand scheme of things). ;)
     
    jhmattern, Aug 10, 2008 IP
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  18. edzachary

    edzachary Active Member

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    #38
    I'm glad you're happy. But I'd be willing to bet the majority of folks here trying to make a living as a writer are frustrated with the cheap nature of **most** paying markets found on DP. Again, I say this as a writer and as a publisher. I personally don't look for writing work on DP because it just doesn't pay. My niches include jobs, HR, and career counseling. I write for several major websites and magazines within my niche. Those editors and publishers I guarantee you never look here for writers. That isn't how writing jobs within that niche are found and it isn't where publishers within that niche look for writers. And why? Because this is small potatoes. If you want to write as a hack for someone building an article database or for some 20-something kids who thinks they can build an authority website on the strength of their good looks and HTML skills, you can do so here for about $5-$10 per article. That is the market of DP. If you want to make a living doing that, good for you. But if you want to be a "writer" -- where your creative talents are exploited in forwarding good information that entertains and-- gasp! -- actually inspires, you need to do elsewhere in more traditional ways.


    I never suggested that. As a publisher I post in lots of different places on DP. I'm linked to various venues within my profile. And decent writer with some investigative skills would look at my profile, visit my sites and use those venue to contact me when and where they see opportunity. It happens all the time -- just not from people who frequent this type of site. And why? Because legitimate writers really don't hang here.

    You ARE right about referrals. They are key in a community like this if you are looking for legitimate talent. YOU might be the real deal -- a talented writer who can quickly take on a project and professionally complete it for a fair wage. But for every one like you there are 50 other hacks who bid $.03 per word and do a half-assed laughable job.

    That's a good point. I think any decent writer would live off of referrals. Who you know is always the best way to get any kind of job. Is that to suggest that writers who come here do so mostly because they don't know anyone or haven't built up that referral base. That seems a kinder evaluation of what happens here.

    I don't come here to get writing gigs, I get them elsewhere. I come here to support my development activities. Oddly enough, I have had webmasters scout me other through my profile only to run tail the second they hear what real content within my areas of expertise cost them. When I show them my resume and the hundreds of online links and references to past work it becomes evident to them what real writing costs.

    Look, I'm not here to make anyone feel bad. I'm just stating the facts as I see them: DP is great for a lot of things but it is LOUSY for finding legitmate work as a writer and it is LOUSY for finding legitimate writers who produce high quality work. Like all things, you get what you pay for here and you get what you deserve if you swim in these waters looking for work.

    Why don't we open up a thread using $100,000 as a benchmark and see how many people respond to making that kind of money as a writer here.

    That's a real world wage for real writers -- at least in the world I'm coming from.
     
    edzachary, Aug 10, 2008 IP
  19. marketjunction

    marketjunction Well-Known Member

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    #39
    You might be right. I don't use DP as a source for finding writing gigs, so the 1,000 posts for 500-word articles @ $1.09 don't bother me at all. ;)

    The buyers aren't part of my target audience anyway. It's like Tiffanys getting upset and worried about losing sales because a Wal-mart just opened next to them and is having a blowout sale on costume jewelry.


    Why would they? This is just a forum for people trying to do stuff online. Not really a writer's hangout if you know what I mean.


    Well, I know of one person that could post in that thread if he wanted too. But, I doubt he would.

    I find such things to be low class. Personally, I don't care what others make. If they are happy, fine.

    And for the record, I know of many "real" writers who don't make $100,000. Hell, the world is full of journalists who don't.

    Wake me up when the amount earned is directly related to how smart or talented you are.
     
    marketjunction, Aug 10, 2008 IP
  20. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

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    #40
    I write in similar niches to you, although not exactly the same. I also don't charge anywhere close to the low rates you see advertised here (my lowest rate currently for any client is something around $.20 / word, and most significantly higher). But I still find plenty of work here. That said, I'd never rely solely on DP for gigs (nor should anyone, no matter what they're charging). I've also written for very large sites. I even hired writers for a large network. And I did look here. (I've also had a few large corporate clients find me here on DP for business writing of various types, so large companies do come by and notice what you have to say.)

    True. That's the public market of DP. However, there's an entirely different "underground" market where most business is done through referrals. And you'd be surprised at the referral rates and connections some of the webmasters here have. ;)

    I'm going to try not to take that comment personally. There are a lot of writers here making excellent livings (even more than many of the magazine freelancers and published authors I know personally), using DP as sometimes a minor, and sometimes significant, portion of their client base.

    Maybe I should take it personally. :rolleyes: There are quite a few "legitimate" writers here, and if you haven't found them, you simply haven't been looking hard enough. Not every decent writer has an interest in working with you. We all work in different niches. We all look for gigs in our own ways. Many don't use cold contacting at all (not saying they shouldn't - it can be effective). Many simply don't need additional gigs - they know how to make the work come to them. ;)

    Sure, there are writers like that. I used to spend a lot of time trying to help them out. I gave up for the most part. Most of those writers will be out of business in one to a few years. At the same time, as long as there's a demand for lousy, cheap content, someone will provide it. The client base is as much to blame. Those looking for something better here certainly do know how to find it though. And on the positive side, in the last 6 months to a year, I can tell you the caliber of writers has been increasing (not that we're losing crappy writers, but that far more reputable folks have been joining this and similar communities, networking, and improving that underground referral market tremendously).

    I think that's the case for some. But they don't come in and automatically start getting referrals. That's why I'm constantly hounding them about networking. As much as they can find gigs here, it will take time. DP is an excellent place (with those newer, better writers coming in) for them to build their network with other writers (in addition to other networking of course).

    That's why I originally came here as well. I run quite a few sites, and am working towards publishing full-time and dropping client work entirely by the end of next year. So I do understand that perspective. I've found that posting even a range of rates publicly helps to keep away comments from folks who would scoff at them. I used to get PMs and emails here (some quite nasty) about my rates. Once I publicly listed them on my site, and made that available, those who couldn't afford me simply didn't get in touch, and those who could have been more than willing to pay the rates.

    It just takes time to build your reputation to a point where other writers (and webmasters) start to recognize you, get familiar with your rates and specialties, and start sending work your way. Building word-of-mouth isn't a quick process, but it can happen - here or anywhere else. :)

    I think Jason covered this point pretty well. I know a LOT of truly professional writers (journalists through my PR work, authors with large publishing houses, very serious Web writers, etc.), and most don't make a six figure income. I don't think incomes alone really say all that much about whether or not someone is a "real" writer.
     
    jhmattern, Aug 10, 2008 IP