Hello Folks, I am a bit puzzled and I need your advice. I read the other night Bull Dog's (UK Broad-Band ISP bought last year by "Cable & Wireless" Telephone Network) Terms & Conditions for 2 hours and the next day for about another 1.5 hour (32 pages in total !) and there is a clause/section 12 which is worrying me. Usually, all ISPs T & C mention that we cannot mis-behave such as harras others, send abusive messages, spam, mis-behave, etc. but it seemed to me Bull Dog is saying I will have to pay fines £2,000/£5,000 pounds (British Sterlings) if I or anyone using my broad-band connection engage in any of these. Clause 7 states what we are prohibited to do and clause 10 states our liability to bull dog and bull dog's liability to us. I emailed the customer service about this issue and he says he thinks (which means he is not sure) the clause mentions that bull dog's liability to me is £2,000/£5,000 pounds and not my liability to them but if that is the case then I don't understand why it states "your liability to Bulldog" . Anyway, my English isn't too good (as English is my 2nd language and I am not a caucasian) and was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to read the clauses/sections (they are short) and tell me what you think. On their T & C link : http://www.bulldogbroadband.com/general/terms_v2.asp please read the section (it is short) : 12. SPECIAL CONSUMER TERMS You will notice that the consumer section/clause (12 ) states : " • subject to clauses 7, 10 and the obligation to pay Charges due under these Terms, Bulldog's liability to you, and your liability to Bulldog, in respect of all causes of action arising in each calendar year in contract, tort or otherwise (including liability for negligence or breach of statutory duty) under, in connection with or arising out of the supply or non-supply of Services and/or Equipment: • in respect of each and every line shall be limited to damages equal to £2,000 in such calendar year; and; • in aggregate shall be limited to damages equal to £5,000 in such calendar year. " Actually, please read these 3 small sections/clauses : 7. YOUR OBLIGATIONS 10. LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY before reading section/clause 12 because section/clause 12 mention about section 7 and 10 when it says "subject to clauses 7, 10 and the obligation to pay Charges due under these Terms," So, kindly read those 3 sections/clauses before posting what you have understood from the 3 sections/clauses. You can finish them all in 5 minutes. I asked customer service what they mean by "line" when the T & C states : " • in respect of each and every line shall be limited to damages equal to £2,000 in such calendar year; and; • in aggregate shall be limited to damages equal to £5,000 in such calendar year. " and he said it means "phone lines". I thought that maybe it meant that for every "line" of prohibited act (mentioned in section/clause 7) we may have to pay fine of £2000 (max £5000 per year) but I guess line means "phone line" after-all. Nevertheless please keep both interpretation of "line" in mind when reading the sections/clauses and see which interpretation makes sense. I think their interpretation does now, but you never know mine could be right because as far as I am concerned the customer service maybe lying through their teeth just to sign us up as some of them do that here in the UK. Ok, you might have a question : Why am I so worried that Bull Dog might suddenly start fining me ? Well, as you can imagine, every house-hold has teenagers and experience tells me that they are most of the time "chatting" in chat-rooms and making "new mates" whenever they are on the internet. And ofcourse, they chat with strangers and all sorts of people and sooner or later some guy wishing to be funny and wishing to start a chat-flame before ending his chat for that night starts abusing other chatters. My worry is, when teenagers from my house-hold get offended by other chatters (who start chat-flames) they are most likely to retaliate by sending similar abuse. And that, might land me in trouble with my ISP (Bull Dog) as they have made it very clear on their T & C that they will monitor and record every internet activity. Yeah, I can tell my house-hold not to swear at others on the internet and they would promise me they would behave but when the time comes when you lose your head because others are just being plain stupid and swearing at you for the sake of starting a chat-flame then you just forget all your promises and only remember it when your ISP drops you a big fine on your lap. Frankly, I haven't found any better ISP than Bull Dog because with Bull Dog our minimum contract is only 1 month unlike most others whose minimum contract is 12 months. Plus, Bull Dog offers 4mbs download band-width unlike all the others whose max download speed is 2mbs. And, Bull Dog does not put uploading or downloading restrictions unlike most others. That's why I prefer Bull Dog but that clause 12 is holding me back from signing-up. To this day, I still use dial-up. Cheers Folks !
my 2 cents.... i wouldnt worry about the terms at all, they are just covering their behinds, make sure you dont use your internet connection for ILLEGAL ACTIVITY...and you will be ok. flaming people in forums...chat rooms and having general full blown diputes is not illegal, just generally frowned upon by the internet community...not isp's.. they are just making sure you are not pedalling illegal porn, uploading viruses, selling nuclear bombs... and things like that...all the rest is OK
Thanx but do you reckon they are safe ? Because one person (not in the UK) pointed-out that they would be monitoring us which means spying. Plus, another person (too not in the UK) mentions their clause says that we should not knowingly receive bad things such as abuse, etc. and his aunt some-times sends him jokes etc. which could be counted by an ISP as "abusive emails" and so he thinks if I get such jokes or if anyone sends me spam or if anyone who I know or any stranger sends me abuse then the ISP would take it as if I have broken my agreement with them when I "knowingly received bad things" and then would finally look for an excuse to charge me fines. Frankly, I am starting to think : Is this entrapment ? I mean, how on earth will they know if I knowingly received any crap or not ? Maybe, I'll receive some-thing unkwoingly and then they will find an excuse to say I knowingly received it and then start fining me ? Plus, their T & C mentions that there is de-activation fee but it does not mention any-where on their website how much that is and when I ask their customer service then he says there is none since it is not mentioned on their website such as on the faq. Maybe, after they get a lot of subscribers they will suddenly post the de-activation fee so we all get trapped if we suddenly want to leave them for them providing bad service or raising their monthly subscription fee ? This is what I think..... They gave us 4mb download where all other ISPs give no more than 2mbs. They gave us a good price that equals all other ISPs 2mbs prices. They gave us monthly subscriptions where most others (apart from 2) require a min of 12 months subscription. They mention no deactivation fee on their package descriptions or faq so we forget about it but leave a clause on their T & C that there will be a deactivation fee just to save their own arses in the future. They give us bargain so we rush to them. Once we all rush to them, they will start to drop their quality of service such as get others to share our lines (bad contention ratio). And, when we try to leave them, they will suddenly post on their website their "deactivation fee" and if people scream they knew nothing about deactivation fees then they will point-it -out that it was mentioned on one of their clauses on their T & C when each subscriber subscribed. Frankly, right now, it is starting to sound like entrapment. What do you think now after all this ? Frankly, there is only 2 others that require no 12 months subscription but these 2 provide packages which are not that great as Bull Dog. Actually, check them out to familiarise yourself with what is going on in the UK. http://www.bulldogbroadband.com http://www.virgin.net http://www.solo.pipex.co.uk
if you honestly think they would have the time to check where you are surfing, read your e-mails (which in itself is ilegal without a warrant), check everything you posted on websites or forums...check out every website you ever visited.... etc etc..and those of the other 1000's of subscribers....then you would be panicing slightly. they would need employees to monitor every move...which is inconceivable. They may have some seriously naughty domains 'flagged' that could ring alarm bells.. but you would probably have trouble finding those places ...even if you tried. and besides...if you are that worried..why not just get a conection from a standard internet service provider. ..and make do with 576kb... .you dont need a 4 meg connection.....especially as you say you are on dial up... 576 would be like a ferrari
These are standard terms for any providor. I'm not sure why you are so worried about the terms as anyone just using them to surf, etc could care less about their liability if they are using the service illegally. Your only alternative to agreeing to the conditions is to just use an internet cafe instead as any provider will make you sign similar terms.