Legal battle can be avoided IMO. It depends on personality. If you're happy to bend over against your principles and want an easy life at school (you're probably already on their black-list now anyway) do take it down. If you want to stand up for yourself and be a leader you don't. Fact is, the school can not make you take the site down. If they don't want pupils to access it, they can block it with their firewall software and what not. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know what's right and wrong. Take whatever punishment comes at you for violating school rules if you have done anything out of order (you deserve it) but don't let them make you take down your business! PS All this is assuming the site in itself is all fine/not attacking the school etc.
I agree with yfs1. Just the basis for the site, to bypass school filters, might not get much sympothy. I remember computer crime laws passed in the late 90's, the carrier of the information is just as guilty as the person commiting crimes with it, via a computer. Example, AT&T was just as liable for death threats made via emails that were carried over their networks, as the person making them. Now all this is on the side of criminal law. Before it ever reaches this, other steps will have been taken, just pointing out that there is very little absolution in saying, 'hey i'm a victim here too' if you didn't take the precautions in preventing the abuse of what you built. Now toss in that you intentionally defeated steps taken by the school to 'protect' it's members, you can easily be in violation of codes of conduct for expelshion, and I wouldn't be surprised if a civil case could be reimburshment of expense when they try to 'fix' the new hole in their 'protection' your site creates. IMHO: The message you received was 'recorded' and don't be surprised when you see it again as a form of evidence for the review of your actions if you don't act. DISCLAIMER: NOT A LAWYER, BUT VERY PARINOID! Tom
Just a simple question, why don't the school just block his site? Wouldn't that be much easier than this "shut your site down or else" bussiness? ps. If the school rules says your not allowed to circumvent the blocking system then your in trouble. However you should be safe by configuring your site so that it can't be used from your school. I'm sure theres plenty of kids in other schools thats looking for this service and who would make you far more than $7 a day.
I would agree that it is more about risk/reward than right/wrong. I tend to think some young people don't understand the risk part and are better off taking what they learn to create a site that earns $14 a day rather than $7 There are a lot of questions only soapbath can truly answer 1.) What was the proxy actually used for and what was your honest involvement? 2.) Was the revenue from strangers or did you have something going with these same friends etc, etc My only point is that you have to pick and choose your battles based on the amount of risk involved not necesarily whether you are technically right or wrong. This happens every day in business and doesn't mean you are bowing to the establishment. It just means you are looking out for #1 which has meant a high level of success for many. I always figured if I wanted to fight every wrong with a legal battle I would be better suited to volunteering for the ACLU. In the end I just want to make money so I chose my path.
yfs1: hence why she should discuss everything with her legal guardian/parent. I don't really care what the site/proxy was used for. Blocking access to it isn't difficult and any sys/network admin can do it without any problem. If pupils are taught at school to abandon their principles then they will get zero respect when they enter the business world. Principles and integrety are everything when you enter the real world (ie get a job) and this is yet another thing that doesn't get taught in schools. Yes, the school can make life very very hard for you. But again, they again risk horrendous publicity in doing so. Many head teachers are getting much more business wise nowadays, schooling is becoming big business attracting sponsorship from major business players. Those big players will not put money into a school that gets too much embarassing publicity. This fact begs the question: Is there something here we're not being told about ? A school will not risk the adverse publicity over something petty - there's simply too much at stake nowadays - and if they do, then that head will not last long. Schools need to teach business principles and one of those is integrety. If you say you're going to do something then do it. and following your principles is a big part of establishing your integrety.
By the way this whole thread reminds me of War Games when he changes his grades using the school computer system (or was that Ferris Bueller's Day Off and attendance records)
Yfs1, I agree about 'picking' your fights. It would be a waste of time to fight all of them. Sometimes it's best to 'not be bothered' and cut your losses. But this is a school/government body (crooks themselves in many regards) telling a talented person they can not exercise their talent even though (seemingly - depending on full story) there's nothing illegal about it. That's what pisses me off.
You do know we are going to see an Associated Press story any day now where some schoolgirl in the UK was caught laundering money gained through Drug Proceeds through her School Computer system
Any authority can tell you what you can and can't do. This is the basis that our society is founded on. But those authorities have to follow written procedures and written rules and it is those procedures and rules that specify what they can and can't demand of you. Rules and regulations in schools are getting better and better, they had to - in years gone by, you could have run and entire fleet of busses through school rules which in todays litegious society simply wasn't good enough.
This is a very serious issue. First and foremost, get your parents involved. If your parents agree with the school you won't get past first base in trying to fight this thing. The school is well within their authority in asking you to take the site down. Forcing you to take the site down is a different level, and the problems that can occur if they want to force you to take the site down are probably more than you are willing to endure. When you are young, principal is everything. I'm still very hardnosed about fighting for what is right and it has cost me plenty of money over the years. If you try to fight them in court, you must be prepared to do so. I lost my first lawsuit in summary judgement because I didn't understand the system - at a cost to me of nearly thirty thousand dollars. And I never even got to tell my side or have my day in court. If you are considering fighting this, let them know in writing. A letter to the effect of "This request is unusual and shocking. I require time to fully grasp the issues involved and to consult others for advice on what to do. I would also like a full explanation as to the reasoning behind your request and specifically what further actions you are considering. In any case, I will not come to a decision until at least thirty days from now." At this point, everything should be in writing. Understand that your classmates have already sold you out, and others will in the future. Any hope of maintaining any secrecy surrounding your activities on the site, or your in school marketing are gone. If they haven't done it on their own, their parents will make them. Consider also that even if you have done nothing to market this within the school, it's possible and even likely that someone will say that you have - either because they don't like you, or because the administration wants someone to say it and someone will see the opportunity to save their own rear end. I'm with yfs1 - the best idea is to comply with their request. I certainly see the other side, and depending on the kind of person you are, fighting this could provide a valuable learning experience - but you absolutely must understand the costs involved. This is new territory for a lot of schools. The things that they will do in response to a fight are unknown, and that is always the worst case. If you know what they will do, you can strategize. At this point, you don't know if you are facing suspension, detention, a drop in grades, an expulsion, a legal battle, an ethics board review, or what. As a parent, I would be very angry that my childs educational institution is making vague and ominous threats without discussing anything with me or my child beforehand. Come up with a list of reasons that this request is unreasonable for discussion with your parents and the school. You are going to have to discuss the site with them regardless of whether or not you close it down right now. 1) Similar sites are available everywhere. Closing my site down does nothing to protect the schools interest. 2) The site is for charity. You are effectively taking money away from a good cause. 3) The site has users outside the school. There is a legitimate need to maintain the site. 4) The site does nothing illegal. In fact proxies are standardized and there are similar commercial solutions available. 5) etc. etc. When you present them with a good list, they will at least know that you have thought things through. It's much better than leaving the impression that you created this site to circumvent the school's authority to monitor web sites. Another idea is to ask them what they are trying to accomplish. If they are trying to prevent kids from accessing proxy sites, suggest alternatives to trying to shut sites like yours down.
yfs1: and you know that the press are going to say she was following advise gained for shady characters on the internet with strange online names
Excelent post Nevets. That is probably the best summary I have seen yet. I have to say I am actually extremely curious now about your first lawsuit. In a perfect system the person who is right would win but since its not perfect any company that wants to stay in businees has to evaluate their own risk/reward. Some would gladly spend the 30k to make a point. Others would balk at the idea. Good Stuff
yfs1: you should know by now, it's the person you buys the best lawyer that stands the best chance of winning.
I agree with nevetS that from now on, everything should be in writing with the school. Personally I would think seriously before giving in to bullying tactics from any authority. SoapBath: You know your way around the internet - that I know - and I'm willing to put money on the fact that the school will be well aware of that as well. Perhaps the school in question would like a demonstration of the power of online advertisement and the amount of damage that can be caused to reputations by using the internet as an advertising medium. Your school can and will tell you what you can do on their premises (whilst you're under their duty of care) they cannot and should not be allowed to place restrictions on what you do outside of their time - with the exception of homework . Discuss it with your parents, as NevetS said, put forward a reasoned case to them. If your parents back you, then have them take legal advise on your behalf - it's better that a legal rep sends a letter telling the school to get f*****d rather than you doing it yourself . Your legal rep would word the letter in much better language than I'd use
I suppose I could share here. It can help drive home the point that you better be prepared for the consequences. I was employed by a company that dramatically underpaid me. I was billing close to 500K in services and was getting paid just a fraction of that. A year and a half into working for them, they forced me to sign a contract that said i would pay them for training expenses if I quit within two years. I put off signing as long as I could, but in the end I caved and I never should have. They started to treat me terribly - my most memorable moment was working 24 hours on Labor Day and getting yelled at for taking an hour to go home and shower. Shortly after that, another company offered to double my salary. I took the job and told the first company to take a hike. They sued. Of course, they sued me out of state, and they demanded an absurd amount of expenses - like travel expenses for projects I worked and billed for - and they were reimbursed for by the client. They also inflated the costs of training classes, because they got over a 50% discount and demanded reimbursement for the retail cost. I wrote out my side of the story in my court responses, but I neglected to get depositions or provide real evidence beyond my own word. They moved for summary judgement and won it without me even being able to argue against it. Looking back, I could have appealed the decision, but it would have been a fruitless venture because I would have made other mistakes down the road. I settled post-judgement under the threat of bankruptcy for about 5K less than the judgement and made payments for 4 years. In the end, I was making payments to the company who hired me away because they ended up buying the company I left. (I had since gone independent). Needless to say, I'm still very bitter - and I know a lot more about legal issues these days. (and I finally have a lawyer on retainer). In the end, being the primary developer behind our nations revamped 9-1-1 system, I literally would have made more money that year working at McDonald's.
Ouch, well you live and learn. Companies will and do get away with near enough whatever they want with their employees. Most companies have their employees by the balls and they know it. They can and often do have ridiculous contracts and employees sign them simply because they can't afford not to. Many people will just blindly sign a contract - at least you had the common sense to read it first.
A couple of important background notes are: 1) The company I worked for was HQ'ed in Colorado. I live and worked primarily in California - employment law in California did not apply. Colorado employment laws heavily favor businesses whereas in California they favor employees. 2) I was just a kid with MS Word and findlaw. Paying for a lawyer would have literally cost me 10 grand and those I consulted said my case was defendable, but I stood a very good chance of losing, even with strong representation. 3) Being an out of state court, I couldn't go down and talk with the court clerk to get assistance. If I had been local, more than likely they would have taken pity on me and at least explained the deadlines and requirements for me to defend myself. 4) The threat of appeal and the potential bankruptcy can always get a judgement reduced via settlement. (sorry to hijack the thread. I get worked up every time I think about this case)
I wouldn't consider it hijacking the thread. Taking the leagal road should imho opinion be the last couse of action - a couple of well worded threats can often change the course of a potential problem and avert unecessary and expensive court costs. Talking about the implications (whether you lose or win) of court action is valid in this thread. But, back to the matter at hand. Discuss it with your parents, you'd be either extremely brave or extremely foolish to take any action without their backing. If you think school can give you a hard time, imagine what you'd get a home if you went against your parents wishes. You can allways find another school - you will never replace your parents.