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Firefox vs IE Differences?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by mjblake, Feb 13, 2010.

  1. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #21
    Everything I do is done with just a text editor. What you use does not dictate it's looks.
    Like I said above, what it looks like in IE does not matter at first. You have to get the code right and IE struggles to present properly written code in the way it should be written. That's why we always first test in a modern browser to make sure our properly written, valid code works the way we wish. Properly written valid markup will generally work in all the modern browsers with little or no adjustments.

    Once we know the code is right, then we can spend the time necessary to see how IE screws things up because we can be comfortable with the fact that nothing we wrote is causing us problems but the quirks and bugs of IE are well known, as are the hacks to fix it.

    If you test using IE first, then you are coding to a bug. Your resulting markup will also be error ridden and buggy, guaranteeing modern browsers will not work with it as well as they can.
    SEMrush
     
    drhowarddrfine, Feb 15, 2010 IP
    SEMrush
  2. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #22
    If by that you meant the whole thing was written ONLY testing against FF as you went, and only testing against OTHER browsers once the whole thing was done - /FAIL/ right out of the gate. You should be testing against all the major engines as you go. Code one section, test, test, etc. This can prevent you from coding sections using techniques that only work in one browser.

    Coding to any one browser is instant /FAIL/ given that there are large sections of the specification that don't even say how certain things are supposed to render - meaning the browser makers all went their own directions on handling them. (Form elements for example)

    DrHowardDrFine was right in that it's not actually 'fixing' anything - What you have done is rely upon the error handling of the browser and NOT on the proper behavior of your code. Given that error handling across all browsers is handled differently (and until REALLY recently nowhere NEAR what the specifications say to do in FF, and STILL nowhere near what the specs say in IE) that's a recipe for /FAIL/.


    We peek under the hood of your site, and we can see all sorts of issues... As our resident stooge pointed out, the XHTML 1.1 doctype is just the START of your woes. 1.1 is for 'XML applications' and for the most part is considered undeployable in the wild. You want XHTML, you should be using 1.0 Strict.

    That you've got tons of javascript when I don't see anything that actually NEEDS it except perhaps that 'select' launcher, javascript writing out content, presentational markup, nothing even RESEMBLING semantics, tables for layout, absolute links for no good reason, classes thrown at damned near every element for no reason, let's just say that there's a reason you are WASTING 70k of markup on sending 5k of text content and 35 content images; Even with that silly 'select' menu there's little good reason for that to be more than 15-20k total - in other words 60% of your HTML is dead weight. Hell you could shave 13k off the page ALONE just from changing every occurrence of "http://www.havocarcade.com/" to "/" in your links.

    With 141 validation errors, as I always say you don't even HAVE HTML, you have gibberish.

    I mean, take just this simple little train wreck of a section - I'll add formatting to make it clear just how bad it is.

    
    	<tr>
    		<td width='25%' colspan='1' valign='top'>
    			<div class='mainmenuhead'>
    	 			<div class='menuheadtext'>Shooting Games</div>
    			</div>
    			<div class='menubg'>
    				<div class='menutext'>
    					<table class='gltable' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0'>
    						<tr>
    							<td>
    								<a href='http://www.havocarcade.com/game/3123/Zombie-Apocalypse.html' class='gamelink'>
    									<img 
    										src='http://www.havocarcade.com/img/zombiemassacresasd2.png'
    										title='Zombie Apocalypse'
    										alt='Zombie Apocalypse'
    										width='80' height='65'
    										class='gamethumb'
    										align='left'
    									/>
    								</a>
    								<a href='http://www.havocarcade.com/game/3123/Zombie-Apocalypse.html' class='gamelink'>
    									Zombie Apocalypse
    								</a><br />
    								<img
    									style='border: 0px; margin: 0px; margin-top: 1px;'
    									src='http://www.havocarcade.com/plugins/site/themes/xcadian//ratings/0stars.png'
    									alt='0'
    								/><br />
    								<span class='menutext'>
    									Join in the Online multiplayer zombie onslaught! Upgrade your weapons, k...
    								</span>
    							</td>
    						</tr>
    					</table>
    
    Code (markup):
    Table for no good reason is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if you were to use a table there we have a tag called 'caption' which is probably what "shooting games" should be - though I would not use a table making that a h2, so it doesn't even need a class. Then you have the pointless nested table that is also a miserable /FAIL/, with classes thrown at damned near everything for no good reason AND presentational marup to boot. Here's a big tip - if your table ends up only having one TD per TR, you shouldn't be using a table!

    There is NO reason for that to be more than:

    
    <div class="gameSection">
    
    	<h2><span><!-- image sandbag --></span>Shooting Games</h2>
    	<ul>
    		<li>
    			<a href="/game/3123/Zombie-Apocalypse.html">
    				<img 
    					src="/img/zombiemassacresasd2.png"
    					alt="Zombie Apocalypse"
    					width="80" height="65"
    				/>
    			</a>
    			<h3>
    				<a href="/game/3123/Zombie-Apocalypse.html">
    					Zombie Apocalypse
    				</a>
    			</h3>
    			<div class="stars_0"></div>
    			<p>
    				Join in the Online multiplayer zombie onslaught! Upgrade your weapons, k...
    			</p>
    		</li>
    
    Code (markup):
    That's it, about all you should have for markup in that section (maybe one or two empty span as image sandbags extra). EVERYTHING else goes in the CSS. That's half the size WITH FORMATTING of your white-space stripped version.

    MOST of the time people have layout problems cross-browser it actually has little to do with IE, and more to do with broken/outdated methodologies and overthought markup/layout where DIV, TABLE and CLASS are thrown at damned near everything for no reason.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
    deathshadow, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  3. danniboi33

    danniboi33 Peon

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    #23
    When you are designing a site, it is smart to check the site through many different browsers. When you run across errors like this in firefox, I use an addon called "firebug". I know it is available with chrome as well, but not sure about the other browsers. It has been a life saver for me.
     
    danniboi33, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  4. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #24
    Opera has dragonfly which is pretty much the same thing, and IE8 has it's developers tool which is SUPPOSED to be similar (it's pretty much useless though)

    But if you 'need' dragonfly or firebug when working on your own sites, you've probably totally cocked up somewhere or are coding with decade out of date methods. The only thing those tools SHOULD be useful for is cleaning up other people's half-assed rubbish they vomited up and called HTML.
     
    deathshadow, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  5. danniboi33

    danniboi33 Peon

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    #25
    I think that is what the original author did. Otherwise, this post would not exist.
     
    danniboi33, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  6. dfweyer

    dfweyer Peon

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    #26
    Maybe you can drive your visitors to use Firefox instead but leaving the code along as is :D
     
    dfweyer, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  7. danniboi33

    danniboi33 Peon

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    #27
    I just don't understand why people even use IE.
     
    danniboi33, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  8. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #28
    This is why:

    Most users use it-period.

    As long as MS has the market share users will always use the "default" broswer.

    the "hype" is that FF is used by more that IE browsers are....which is far from the truth, and they come up with that by doing a "random" survey, that is often incurate, and biased.

    but as the market leader their [MS] browser is also the first choice of Users as it is the "default", your shit looks sh*tty in IE thats what most of your Users will see...an unprofessional looking "sh*tty" site.


    As for MS losing that market share, I dont that will ever happen.

    As for losing market share in the near future, i doubt that will ever happen.

    MS is currently designing a new browser that will surpass and outdo all the others... This browser will act like an operating system itself...as such it will kill FF and chrome...

    MS has a history of antitrust issues, if they render the new browser and the O/S incompatable with add-on browsers...they will simply die. Just like Netscape. To bet on FF i think is a foolhardy gesture, as their popularity will be fleeting at best.

    “Gazelle” browser
    http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655

    In "REAL WOLD" server browser hits to my site, you can clearly see MS browsers are dominant:

    [​IMG]
     
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  9. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #29
    The tables are as required.

    I wont say your an idiot, but the div classes that you would so easily do away with are required for dynamic pages and tables, you cant simply do it like that. obviously you dont have access to the php files and functions of the site, but see only the html output. So Ill disregard every thing you have said as it is ridiculous.

    This is NOT what i am looking for for my hompage cats- there is no background, there are no divs, there are no tables, no cat headers, no ratings, it wont work...... it looks like crap and isnt dynamic. terrible, terrible coding.

    Your crap code as given above:

    [​IMG]

    The "trainwreck" as you call it:

    [​IMG]


    Here is how it should look, and does look with the divs/tables:

    [​IMG]

    over 30 of the "xhtml" issues reported are CPMstar as well as the META required for Yahoo webmaster. This is script given for access to Yahoo webmaster and CPMstar adverts. This cannot be changed as it will mess up Yahoo verification for webmaster login/site as well as ads run via the CPMStar network.

    In any case it is not my site's script, and I cannot change it as it is external code, and third party.


    As for JS-
    Well then you would be wrong,

    I do need the JS for both the "fade" slider on "featured" as well as the "games slider" on the media pages.

    Your advice as far as dynamic script coding goes, is next to worthless IMO. You have no clue what you are talking about as "evidenced" by your scripting suggestion above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  10. danniboi33

    danniboi33 Peon

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    #30
    I hate to disagree, but the REAL reason that IE is dominate as the number 1 user is because it is preloaded and most people just use what they know. Anyone that I know that has gone to firefox has never looked back to IE. The ONLY reason that I even have it on my computer is because I still have clients that use it. However, they are slowly but surely changing their minds.

    As for MS building a browser that will kill all others, I really do not see it happening. That was the hype with Chrome and look where they are today. Too many people are over IE for it to become the rule again.

    As a last note, if IE is so good at what they do, why are they the ONLY browser that has to have it's own css inside wordpress themes? Don't guess that has anything to do with they flat out stink.
     
    danniboi33, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  11. BarbaraACF

    BarbaraACF Peon

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    #31
    You might want to try plugging in the errors w3c gives you into google. More than likely you will find a solution.
     
    BarbaraACF, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  12. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #32
    Well we will see. In any case, IE is still the dominant browser, and I cant see it changing. When Gazelle is released we shalll see...
     
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  13. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #33
    As for the W3 errors, I dont really care. as HTML5 is soon to be standard, and I am sure the process will start all over again.

    Not even Google/Microsoft/Yahoo are w3c compliant....its more of a joke than anything.
     
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  14. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #34
    Not true. IE has around 62% market share world wide. In some parts of Europe, IE has less than 50% share. And IEs market share has been dropping almost every month for 5 years now when it had 95% share.
    Next month, in Europe, all Windows 7 users will have a popup offering them the option of switching to another browser.
    I'm not aware of anyone who claims that.
    You lose. Like i said, IE has lost market share almost every month for 5 years, dropped from 95% to its current share of 62%.
    Microsoft's NEXT browser is IE9 which already has been announced. You are probably thinking of Gazelle. That's a research project only and is not intended as any final product.
    Real world, not personal, statistics based on hundreds of thousands of sites: Link
    Notice the trend from just over a year ago.
    This from Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
    drhowarddrfine, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  15. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #35
    Yes "gazelle"

    “Gazelle” browser
    http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655

    which is in design to replace the IE Browsers.


    as for IE vs FF, MS IE has dominant market share. Period. as such most Users use them.


    as for "Real world" browser hits. If over 62% worldwide use IE then that suggests most browser "hits" are IE. Period.
    Jeez. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  16. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #36
    Oh? Where did you read that? Your link doesn't say that. Nor will you find Microsoft claiming that.
    MOST users do NOT use IE. MORE users do but claiming MOST means, at least, almost all of them. The reality is 1 out of every 3 do NOT and, in large parts of Europe, 1 out of 2 do NOT.
    Again, no. More than 1 out of every 4 to your own site are not IE so you are ignoring 1 out of every 4 of your visitors. If my company turned away 1 out of every 4 people who visited my sites, I'd have to fire myself.
    Tell me about it.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  17. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #37
    You mean this?
    http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655


    “Gazelle” browser

    This is the worldwide browser "hits" to my site in the last 16 days, and is pretty consistant month to month-
    and as such is a pretty good indicator of a cross reference browser use:
    as such it contradicts your claim that "most do not use IE" (and that is good enough for me)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  18. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #38
    I mean this:
     
    drhowarddrfine, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  19. rive0108

    rive0108 Peon

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    #39
    ahh

    http://www.tech-forums.net/pc/f50/rumor-ie8-last-internet-explorer-gazelle-replace-202172/

    http://apcmag.com/microsoft-to-drop-internet-explorer-for-gazelle.htm

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/160990/ie_8_end_of_the_road_for_internet_explorer.html

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/microsoft-shows-off-experimental
     
    rive0108, Feb 16, 2010 IP
  20. drhowarddrfine

    drhowarddrfine Peon

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    #40
    Did you notice the article I linked to was from an interview with the person in charge of Gazelle at Microsoft? In any case, regarding your IE8 being the last browser find, here's a post from the Microsoft site itself: An early look at IE9.
     
    drhowarddrfine, Feb 16, 2010 IP