DP Writing absolute crap?

Zac, I was not talking about exceptions here.

In general, you do get what you pay for. Good professional writers mush earn enough money for their time. If you offer less, you will have to settle for beginners or non-professionals, whose work will likely require more fact checking and editing.

From a buyer's perspective, the understanding that good writers don't come cheap, will save time and frustration.

As Denise pointed out, there certainly are well-paying clients on DP, but very few.

 

I agree, the majority of DP writers are pathetic. A lot are not even fluent speaking the language of the content and are paid pennies which is gold to them (overseas in poor countries). However, the more talented writers do charge hire, find less work on DP, and aren't as "noticed"

 

I agree with you Oosha.

Buyers need to realize that paying peanuts will often net poor results. Save yourself the frustration and either A) Write the articles yourself or B) Pay a decent rate to receive something worth reading.

 

Another pet peeve is seeing posts from people looking for writers. They spell out in detail the kind of super-high quality that they want in their articles, how the writer they hire needs to be an excellent worker, have attention to detail, know SEO, etc. Then they ask for samples to be sent along with quotes on the job. On nearly every occasion that I have sent my notice in the person always states that I am charging too much for the job.

In my experience 90% of the people looking for writers on DP want something for nothing. They are taking advantage of writers living in countries where the cost of living is low, and in return they get poor quality work most of the time. In the 10 months that I have been here I have seen the pattern repeated time and time again.

Employers should be willing to state up front how much they are expecting the assignment to cost. If they don't mention it I can guarantee it's because they want a penny writer.

 

It's also a pet peeve of mine when potential clients don't want to state their budget up front.

It will save both the client AND writer time and frustration if a budget was announced beforehand. That will save writers the trouble of applying for a job they realize isn't worth their time and the client will get responses from people who actually want to work within the rates set forth in the beginning.

 

chant, nice writing! I do my own copy. But if I were looking for a writer, after reading your post, I would contact you. It's a pleasure to see writing that is both articulate and rational.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of the contractor that you are looking for.

Ask yourself this: "If I were making the rates this person is asking for, would I be able to survive and pay my bills?"

Of course the answer is different for each person because everyone lives differently. I live in Montana and a great job here might be low paying in New York. There are also currency considerations. The dollar is tanking so writers from a country like the U.K. will likely have to charge more than writers in the U.S or Canada.

You should still know right away if someone is charging for ridiculously low rates. I am a web developer and I will not hire contractors with rates that I know are BS. The reason is because I know that when I am in a pinch that person is going to be too worried about paying rent or eating than to make sure my work is taken care of. Low rates are a sign of inexperience and a lack of professionalism.

Inexperienced freelancers don't realize that they cannot work a full day of billable hours because time has to be spent managing the business. They do not realize that their rates should compensate for accounting, legal fees and some people don't even think about taxes. Most people have no idea how to run a business.

Even people "making money on the side" should be charging a worthwhile rate. My free time is worth more than my working time because my free time is more scarce. If I am going to do "something on the side" then I will charge even higher rates than normal.

Too often clients are looking at rates and not seeing anything behind those rates. Of course, this also shows that clients can be just as unexperienced, unprofessional and incapable of running a business as the contractors they hire.

Good Luck!

 

You make several good points Netstratics.

Freelancers DO need to sit down and figure out an hourly rate they can live on - this is AFTER taking into account how many hours you can actually bill for each week, taxes and overhead costs.

There's an excellent post by Jennifer Mattern on her Freelance Writing forum here about "Crunching the Numbers." It's a great resource to help you figure out what a livable wage would be.

 

Hey, thanks Jim for the compliment. That was a nice thing to come back and read!

Another point that I consider is hat the employer is making a living from internet advertising, online sales or affiliate deals. Someone that owns a website that makes money from Google Adsense and that lives in India may be taking in hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars per month which are paid in American dollars. Therefore the going rate is decided by how much advertising revenue a successful website can pull in. Asking for more than a penny per word is very reasonable considering that it's your writing that may be making your employer money consistently month after month, year after year and so on. If they can't afford a decent wage for writing then maybe they are the ones that should be thinking about whether they can afford to run a business online.

I don't see why the penny a word writers just don't go gold farm on World of Warcraft or play Second Life if all they care about is making a couple of bucks a day. It's easier work!

 

Chant - a lot of writers who charge low rates simply don't know what to do or where to go to find higher paying gigs. A lot of others probably don't care and are under the impression that what they charge is the going rate.

There are plenty of resources available to help writers realize their true earning potential. The problem becomes difficult to fix when a writer is stuck in the low-paying writing rut and must churn out article after article just to pay the bills.

When that happens, they don't have time to look for higher paying work elsewhere! Once you get to that point it's extremely difficult to jump to higher paying gigs. That's why it's important to realize what you're worth now rather than later.

 

I agree with you Denise. I also believe that since it is incredibly easy for anyone to call themselves a writer and begin trying to earn some extra side money writing articles for the DP community that it drives down the price for the rest of the accomplished writers trying to eke out a living on here. People think that because they have a computer and keyboard that they are a writer. I also find it reprehensible that writers can take jobs from employers and then will farm out the job to lower earning writers. To date I have only seen one employer call a writer on it on here.

I have a mental picture of the DP content creation forum as the place where the bus stops in Los Angeles and the aspiring young actresses get off thinking that this is where their career to getting rich and famous begins. And just like all the predators looking for fresh meat at the bus stop so too are there predators looking to exploit the new writers on here. Just last week I saw a thread where an employer wanted to hire bloggers at the rate of one-quarter of one cent per word. When I pointed this rate out to him he got mad at my interference in his thread and threatened to call the mods to drum me down. That rate is now the lowest offered job that I have seen on here. I kind of find it fun to see just how low the rate can do and how high the expectations of "quality" the slave lord wants from their writers!

 

I worked out if I write one 500 word article a day I earn $5000 a year. Thats not bad going considering one of those articles takes about 20 minutes to write....

 

They don't go gold farming because in some countries $1 goes much further than it does in US and UK. Even from these countries, you will find people trying to make a few dollars on the side because there’s so much writing work available.

To be able to set your own rates, you have to promote your skills and yourself online. Advertising and making yourself 'known' is the key. It takes hard work, passion for writing, and a good marketing plan to build a proper business.

The best part is most people buying web content don’t know the difference between a writer charging low rates, and a competent writer charging higher rates.

 

It IS easy for someone to call themselves a writer - people don't realize the skill it takes to REALLY be a writer, though. As such, talented writers deserve to be paid fairly for their time, talent and expertise.

Just because you have a keyboard and a computer in front of you does not make you a writer. I have a saw - does that make me a carpenter?

It's people who demand quality and a detailed list of requirements for nothing that truly get on my nerves - and then THEY have the nerve to complain about a writer not living up to their standards.

Pay substandard rates, you're going to get substandard work.

 

This thread reminded me of one of my favorite old job posts I had to rant about from last Spring:

SUPER WRITER NEEDED
Hi! I need a red hot responsible no nonsense article provider who will not pull out half way to supply upwards of 200 articles a week. These are really simple SEOs that you can write 20 a day easily once you get the gist of it. Of course, you have to possess a god command of English but at the most basic level. This is a long term job which means that I will have articles for you as long as you can provide them consistently in quality and quantity. Please. Serious bidders only. I can only pay $1.50 for one article. If you cannot accept my price point and commit to the longetivity of the project, please do not bid.

I think most of this discussion has been covered, but there is one thing I wanted to add:

For the writers who are saying they've pretty much left DP behind as a source for clients, I'd put out there that perhaps they're using the site wrong.

You're not going to get decent paying clients by just going around posting a bunch of ads. You're not going to get them if you're constantly begging for work. Post ads once in a while just to remind them you're out there, but in general, keep your posting to discussion areas, and out of the marketplace area. Being in there too much too soon just makes you appear desperate.

Forum marketing isn't about advertising. It's about building your reputation, so over time the work comes directly to you. If you want an ad up all the time, stick it in your sig. Also, don't waste your time posting nothing but one-two line responses in threads. Have something intelligent, and substantial, to add to the discussion whenever possible.

If you do that, people are going to see your writing through your posts, and they'll see how you handle yourself professionally. The vast majority of my clients that do come through DP for consulting, PR writing, or copywriting come either this way or because a past client referred them to me through the forum. It does work. It's not about going out to find the work... it's about helping the work to find you. That takes some time, but it's well worth it in the end.

 

Jenn - I hope I didn't give you the impression that I ditched DP client-wise. I have worked with a few clients here that were actually willing to pay my rates.

But like you mentioned, I simply wait for them to come to ME - I don't advertise my services on DP.

You can find decent clients here. It just takes some time and professionalism.

 

Nah, I know you know the "private side" of getting nice gigs here and elsewhere. It was just something I saw mentioned a few different times in the thread between people saying it's not worth it anymore to it only being essentially the chump change of their clients - if that's so, they don't know what they're doing to effectively use the forum; that's all. Once you've gotten to the point where the referrals are flowing in regularly without you doing much else, then toning down forum posting and such is completely different; anything before that and it says the writer should have been more patient.

 

It's not always worth it to be patient and wait for the DP referrals to roll in Jen. If you're a decent enough writer there are a ton of print outlets out there that will pay good money for good writing. It does take longer to research and find the opportunities but it seems to be worth it compared to the shallow shoals found on DP most of the time.

Edit: also finding work may be easier online but if any writer with a decent portfolio looked for high paying work online versus in print outlets I bet that the latter would pay more most (or all) of the time.

 

Those are also far more saturated markets, because most freelance writers know about them, while many haven't ventured into online writing yet. Since we're talking in a webmaster forum, it's a reasonable assumption that the bulk of writers here are Web writers rather than predominantly print writers. The two are far from one and the same - Web writers don't always make good print writers and vice versa, so simply suggesting they look to print markets is unrealistic for most.

There are also plenty of online markets that pay quite a bit for writing. Many Web writers just don't know how to find them - network, and your contacts are the ones who will introduce you to them and their unadvertised positions. That takes time, and it's just as true (and essential) for those writing for print markets as those writing on the Web.

Being patient doesn't mean it's going to take you years to get the better gigs. When I ventured into Web writing it took be less than 6 months (if that) to go from being brand new to having a pretty constant flow of work from referrals from past clients and colleagues in my network, and from those who see my forum and blog posts.

I'm not advocating that forums be an exclusive marketing tactic or place of business in any way. You have to network beyond them. How far beyond them will depend on whether someone's looking to be a $.05 / word writer or a $.50 / word writer (or more). But there are plenty of clients here happy to pay $.10 / word and more for quality work... you just won't see them advertise their gigs, because they don't want to be bombarded with requests from writers offering pure crap. You have to expose yourself to them if you want those gigs, and blatant advertising without a lot of other quality participation isn't the way you do that.

 

At a freaking penny per word, you're getting the mangled garbage you're paying.