Do you believe their was a worldwide flood?

Well then 300 meters above sea level would be also impossible, wouldn't it?

The fishes were estimated to be over 10 million years old, by scientific evidence and not by scientific facts though.

In Genesis it teaches us that at the beginning ther was only water and the spirit of God flying over it and thus spoke life and it happened, continents and wildlife were created and didn't emerge by itself.

 

Impossible for what? Impossible for the water level to rise up to that, yeah, i would say it is.

Impossible for those rocks to have previously been underwater 10 million years ago, but since been moved up by geological activity in those intervening years? No, that sounds pretty reasonable. 10 MILLION YEARS is a long time, lots of stuff can happen.

Factual scientific evidence though, I'm sure. And from those factual pieces of evidence, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are somewhere in the vicinity of 10 million years old. Give or take a couple million years.

...that is to say, they ARE NO WHERE NEAR 6000 years old. Not even close. Not possible.

That is what the evidence says.

This is what we're talking about here. That is simply wrong. There was not water and god first. Water was quite late in the development of the solar system (or the universe for that matter). Once again, this is only what the factual evidence says... who knows, maybe you little book is right, and all of the evidence on earth which disagrees with every statement in that book is all wrong. Maybe we should stop looking at the world around us, and instead focus on the fantasy world described in your book which talks about all sorts of silly mythology, like rods turning into snakes, women turning into salt, global floods, virgin births, resurrections etc etc etc.

Yeah right.

 

Sure, I mistakenly pulled down the chain just the other day

 

Now there's a contradiction. I am considered to be brainwashed by many (hundreds or even thousands, if not millions) and here I am saying I know I am brainwashed. Yet, you say that is not so.

You may look at our organisation from afar and judge but you will never really know unless you dip your feet in and find out for yourself. You contradicted yourself again. You said my organisation is irrelevant but you also say our organisation rarely follows half of what the book says. How on earth can you say that without factual evidence, seeing you quote "factual evidence" so much? I like all the bits of the Bible. I mean ALL of it. Know why? It's because I study ALL of it. Every word of it and will do for the rest of my life. You are judging again without evidence.

See above

Ermm...Luke 1:34-35 says what happened in two verses. Actually, everything apart from Jesus was created by Jesus using God's holy spirit. Him being the "master worker". Using your theory would make us Jesus's children. How is Jesus special? Only by way of miracles such as raising the dead, healing the sick, providing enough food for all, walking on water....shall I go on?

Your words "the best time in human history". Now who has the blinders or blinkers on? How many children die every day, how many people die every day from malnutrition, disease, murder. Crime, corruption, pornography, child pornogrpahy, rape....the list is endless....and you say we live in the best time in human history. That tells me exactly where your heart lies and I feel sorry for you that you actually think this way.

See above

The only way we are how we are is because we all unitedly worship the true God. Yes, we are all imperfect just like everyone else in this world and most of us are sick and tired of "man dominating to man's injury". Put it this way. Compare what the world promotes compared to what the Bible promotes. The world promotes everyone to succeed. Climbing the ladder of success is one of the most things humans think about. Only problem is, that ladder is not made of wood or steel or rope. It's made of humans. It's the only way we can succeed in this world. To climb over other people. Me, I would rather have people alongside me, join me in living a life where we all share in each other's works and give respect where respect is due. Our respect is due to our creator because it is via him we have all these things in life (food, shelter and life itself).

If you choose not to acknowledge God then that's your choice and I respect that. But I do not respect you attack what other people believe and especially when you have little or knowledge of that person's background, education or lifestyle.

I hope you can gain some information from what I have written here and maybe have a think about what you are trying to achieve. If it is respect you are trying to achieve then you are missing the mark a bit and may need to work on that a little. If it is just a point you are trying to make then maybe you can use that scientific and educated brain you have to come up with some sound and solid reasoning for your statements.

Either way. I am happy to discuss anything about the Bible but only peaceably.

Col

 

Sure, whatever.

Study all of it...so what. Its not the studying of it, but the application of it.

What about slavery? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/slavery.html

Do you kill homosexuals?

or people who have affairs?

Seriously, no one practices half of what the Bible says to do, because you figure out how to explain away all of the things which are clearly a bad idea. That is the evidence I already have of how your organisation operates, because this is not the first conversation I have had with a christian, nor are you the first person to believe you are the one person on Earth to divine the true meaning from the Bible (My fiance is one, and there is another guy over at ImmInst who also goes on and on about his christian communism idea and the commune he lives on. And they both think different, and most likely you are different again to both of them!)

Why waste either of our time? I don't believe any of it for a second. Just because some random book of short stories says it is so, as I said early on in this thread 'It ain't necessarily so, the things that you're lible, to read in the bible, ain't necessarily so'. Particularly when there is ZERO supporting evidence of pretty much anything which happens in the New Testament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLqqGy2SqmM

I'm sorry you don't understand what humanity is capable of, and the scale of which it is capable. The fact that you can quote a list of bad things at me hardly goes to show that we are at a point of epidemic evilness in the world.

I didn't say that bad stuff doesn't happen. I have no blinders on to what goes on. But I also don't have blinders on to the facts that accompany them. The fact is, thanks to instant communication technology, satellites, broadband internet, television etc, we have more access to SEEING this stuff than ever before. And we have more scope for catching it.

What you can't see is how often it was done throughout history in isolated villages, homes, and so on throughout the world in history. And what we do know is that throughout history women have been consistently treated as underclasses, slaves have been traded and treated less than human. There was no such thing as 'Human Rights' 'Animal Rights' 'United Nations'...There was no such thing as World Vision, UCEF, Amnesty International etc etc. Terrible shit happened, and nobody did anything about it.

And if you don't accept that as enough evidence, then just consider what was done to 'witches' in the dark ages. Consider what some tribes did to appease their gods. Consider the female circumcisions (the male for that matter)... C'mon, people do horrendous things, and history has shown that we always have. The only difference between now and history, is that we get more access to seeing it now than ever before. And that is in fact why I am 98% confident that the world is better than it has eeer been before: It is because we are able to see it that organisations like amnesty international et al are formed, and stuff is actually done to stop it.

I think that approach to business is a bad idea too. I don't climb over people, i collaborate with them. I think this attitude is being well represented on the internet too, with open source projects, wikipedia, librivox etc being flagship projects showing the ultimate in human collaboration, and all of course having nothing to do with religion.

Ethical conduct is not reliant on a belief in God.

Why does a background education of lifestyle matter one little bit to the rationality of a stance? I think arguments should be evaluated in a vacuum. The less known about the person proposing them the better. The attempted claim on truth must be evaluated for itself, for the argument and for the claimed evidence. Not evaluated on the basis of the person making the claim.

its all about truth. The truth is the only thing which really concerns me. And so far, i have seen no reason to believe in the Bible. NOt one bit. Every discussion I have ever had with any christian (and there have been a lot), has never revealed any real reason for believing in the bible other than prophecy. That is the only reason I have ever been given for believing the bible to be true, and i have investigated those prophecies, and am about as convinced by them as I am convinced by Nostradamus (which is not at all).

I'll try my best to stay peaceable

 

to answer your question about killing homosexuals.
when it says be put to death it mean hell.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.- Romans 6:23

No im not saying all homosexuals go to hell.
im saying that everyone would be going to hell, if they don't accepted christ as their savior.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. - Romans 3:23
For anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.- Romans 10:13

were all in the same boat

 

So basically the book is full of commandments and punishments and laws and rules...which well...don't really matter, because you're all going to fail anyway, so just believe in me and thats enough.

It is the most insane thing I have ever heard.

And I still can't get a good reason why anyone believes a word of it.

 

Of course we all fail when it comes to the Commandments, etc. If we didn't then we would be perfect and there would be no point of human existence. However, since we are not perfect, God wants us to learn from our mistakes and not continue committing them. He wants us to repent to Him for the sins we have committed.

 

The book is far more than that. There's history, illustrations, scenarios, dramas, love, justice, power and wisdom. It's wisdom that most of us lack unfortunately. Above all that there is a message form our creator.

If you don't believe he exists, well, that's your right to believe that. Maybe, one day you will take another look and sit down and have a peaceable discussion with someone on what the Bible really teaches.

Col

 

What it teaches, and the truth it tries to impart are two separate things really. Besides, what it teaches is questionable at best with many internal contradictions.

But that aside, it still gives no basis for actually believing that 'God' even exists. At least no more than Lord of the Rings give evidence that Gandalf exists.

So tell me of the great stuff in the Bible all you want, but it will still remain a work of fiction.

 

There's a question. Who are you questioning about what it teaches? Also, what answers have been given to you.

Col

 

Al Gore told me that the worldwide flood was an inevitable result of global warming.

 

there has been floods throughout history, and there is no divine spirit helping or watching or controlling anything. You just believe what you are told and thats it? no questioning no insights?

if i told you god was a flying spaghetting monster from the day you were born, you wouldn't be praying to a crucified and mutiliated jesus, but instead to a nice flying monster made of spaghetti.

 

Surely you have something more to add. Your repetitious comments makes me want to yawn.

I wonder how many times "You just believe what you are told" has been mentioned in the P&R thread.

You would gain more respect by just saying "I don't believe there was a worldwide flood".

Col

 

Very true.

 

Couldn't have said it better

 

Anyone willing to speak about it when it is appropriate. My experiences range from people who clearly have never thought of these questions before to people who have clearly devoted their thoughts day and night to it. I have spoken to people who regularly claim to be unlike all of the other christians, because they alone actually do what the bible says. I can't believe how many people say this, but whatever.

My fiance's father studied the Bible for 20 years and has his own special version of it which they are convinced is the true meaning of it, and every other christian on earth is deceived. I talk to people in forums, some such as yourself who clearly are devout christians, but have zero knowledge of things outside of it which are particularly relevant (such as philosophy and science ). I spent good friday debating christianity with a guy who was studying theology at nights.

Plus then I actually watch things like the programs I posted links to earlier in this thread, and read books like 'The God Delusion'.

But don't think for a second that my mind is therefore closed. It may be true that I am pretty darn certain that God doesn't exist, and 100 fold more certain that even if God did exist, it certainly has nothing to do with this book so many people think they base their lives on. But I discuss these things on the off chance someone actually says something compelling! Something original! Something which actually makes sense, which isn't based on circular reasoning or special pleading.

Until that happens though, I will just have to keep pointing out that all real evidence collected to date contradicts most things said in the 'holy Bible' , especially when it comes to a global flood.

I firmly restate. Such a thing is impossible.

 

Well. I only have one thing to say in response. Good for you. You sound like a happy soul. Meaning, you are very happy with the knowledge you have about this. I can respect that. I just wish you would not label me even though you don't know much about me (or the organization I belong to). I feel that your view of my understanding of the Bible and it's teachings is just a touch on the arrogant side.

Now, in saying that. I don't want to get you angry or upset at my objective here in these forums. So, I would hope you would respect my views on these things. For I am a happy soul too!

Have a nice cup of tea and a bikkie!

Col

 

Fair enough. I enjoy discussion for the sake of reaching a conclusion. I enjoy closure. It makes me feel like I have made progress towards truth, if not discovered some actual truth.

I don't mean to be arrogantly judgmental, and while I may in fact be, I don't think it is at all relevant to the discussion. So let me do my best to completely remove any opinion I have of who you are, what your organisation is, or anything about 'you', because as I have previously said, IMO, who you are is irrelevant to the facts of the discussion.

And the facts of the discussion revolve around the fact that the bible says something about a flood covering the earth. I am willing to accept that the bible says there was a flood which covered 'the whole region' but not that there if someone is determined to believe that the bible is true and that the bible says there was a flood which covered all land on the planet, then I will have to say that they are just plain crazy. It isn't possible. Not with what we know.

 

Stop making last minute claims. We believe there was flood because the Bible states it. You don't because you don't see it possible from what we know now. That is fine. It is ok to have different opinions. Let us drop this and move on...