Do all freelancers SUCK? I need a PHP/MYSQL coder

i am looking for a decent coder....contact me on messenger/skype

fixing a social networking script...lots of work...but none of it difficult -- mostly adding to the db and code that exists

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND social networking...I will tell you the end results, not give you a detailed schematic of what my request means.

You should know how to do this, without further explaination

=Create a link/button that will show all friends for user.

=Display all users friends who have a birthday today

=Add favorite song field to profile


This is a big project, but I have found giving one big project to a freelancer is too hard to track....so it will be given in tasks...like the above...instead of giving you all 3 of those at once, i would give one at a time...when that is done, you get paid for what you did.

This way, we know how fast your working, and what your progress is...if your cat dies, you don't need any more pizza money, or any other reason you no longer work on the job, i will know EXACTLY where you left off.

also, until we get to trust you, you will give files to us, and we will give them to you...this will cause extra time, but i have already had 2 hackers and one virus as a result of freelancers...ONE WAS A COMPANY! so no more direct ftp access until you have proven yourself trustworthy.

if the above makes sense to you, you agree to work in this way, you have the time to get started immediately, and won't try to rape me on price.

contact my IM/SKype

ok here is the part where i COMPLAIN ABOUT FREELANCE CODERS - it has less to do with the project, and more to do with my frustration than anything else...read on ONLY IF YOU DARE

It would be nice if, as my freelance PHP coder:

==You didnt disappear in the middle of the job

==You didnt take on my project at the same time as 10 other projects, and you are always telling me you are "working" on it or "couldnt get to it"

==You don't take on my project if its something you have never done before...or if it is new for you, you tell me, and I pay you less, since you are LEARNING on my dime

==You live in a foriegn country you do not try to charge me the same prices as someone in the usa (for instance $30 an hour, but you live in India so i;m paying you 1200rs per hour...NO ONE MAKES THAT)

==You didn't claim you have been a programmer for 2,3,5 or 10 years, yet have NO references I can check. If your new...FINE...say so, but also expect to be paid that way.

OK so you can tell i have been burnt a lot of times, and am very frustrated.

I just wish more PHP coders were PROFESSIONALS...seems too many are hobbyist, and don't take it serious that someone is PAYING to get something done.

I wish there was a certification process, like with windows...trust me when I say...i person who PAYS to get certified, and takes the time to study to pass a test, is a LOT more reliable, than someone who just picked up a tutorial website.

All I am saying is, take my money as serious as I do.

Be fair with me, and I will be fair with you, and send you a LOT of work for the future.

 

Sending you a request to add you on msn.

 

. im on

 

my msn is if you havnt found anyone yet. send me a PM.

 

"BusinessCoach"

I totally are with you, Im lucky I have found couple of guys that I can trust the last months. Good luck with your project

 

Hello, I am sorry to interfere and i am not a programmer but I have an objection to your point

You live in a foreign country you do not try to charge me the same prices as someone in the usa (for instance $30 an hour, but you live in India so i;m paying you 1200rs per hour...NO ONE MAKES THAT)


If someone lives somewhere not in US will he do less labor for your job then why this discrimination??? I live in India and if i ever did a job in programming for which I am a student(Btech CS) then what do u expect me to work for Rs30 per project.. I don't think this the right way to deal.. There may be a deal or a bargain as people in India do work as cheap labors but I don't see a point in discriminating just for the region they are from. It was really rude "do not try to charge me "....


Awaiting an apology from you for all the non US service providers at least...

 

Yes I agree with J.Gia

Prices are based on nature of work not on which country a person resides and how much does that currency value .

Its a annoying statement for sure .

 

And well its sheer disgrace to see such statements coming from people who still are living on lines of regionalism .

Mate go and get yourself some fresh air and Life !

 

your going to be waiting a long time if you expect me to apologize for not standing for getting taken advantage of.

I didnt say i expect someone to work 30rs per hour...but i also dont expect to pay 1200rs per hour either.

the average US programmer makes 60-80k yr USD or at the top end about $38/hr

the average Indian programmer makes 6-11k USD or at current exchange rate
440,000rs PER YEAR at the high end or 211rs/hour (or $5.20/hr USD)

Thats for people with UNIVERSITY DEGREES and years of experience, who commute to an office, and punch in and out doing 40 hours per week

...not freelancers working from home, sporadic hours fudging on the actual amount of time it takes to get a job done.

maybe you should be apologizing to me, and all the other people who are paying freelancers 3-10 times as much as top coders in your area are getting paid.

A $7000USD job pays someones salary for an entire YEAR!

I stand by what i said before...and more people need to stand up also!

again..nothing wrong with paying a programmer a GOOD wage, a DECENT wage even a GENEROUS wage

but there is a point where it gets RIDICULOUS

its time people educate themselves...

movie tickets cost 150rs or only less than $4!

movie tickets in us cost $10 (higher some places like NnY)

no matter how you look at it - its not EQUAL PAY...and it SHOULDNT BE...why should i pay you for a few hours what you would have made in a week if It was an indian

here is the main problem....there are people from INDIA who live here...and they get charged in RS by those still in india.

SO if I was indian, you would be happy to work for $5USD..instead, i am american you try to charge me $50USD

I apologize for NOTHING... I pay FAIR wages...and if you are in a country where my dollar is strong to your economy i am going to pay you whats fair for YOUR country.

 

Yes, I agree with your statement, but you have to consider their experience, For example there are 2 person that Have same skills and experience, but live in different country(India and U.S). Do you want to pay Indian $5 and US $30 for each hour?Not, isn't it!Maybe you can pay slightly different with U.S Citizen since they have same skills and experience? for example, $20 and US$30.

Why you don't want to pay by project basis instead of hourly basis?

I think you can find good programmer in you area instead of this forum, isn't it.

 

This is how I do 99% of my billing. The only time I get an hourly wage is when my client wants to bill by the hour. Bill by project is much better IMHO.

I've had some very serious issues which I was able to fix in 5min, however I dont want to get paid for 5min of work - that'd be lame. Also I've had several simple projects take 20hours or so, I doubt my clients want to pay $20/hr * 20hrs.

 

Firstly get your facts Right :


http://www.brainbox.com.au/brainbox/home.nsf/$all/D7B7F126128C0AA7CA2570D5003B38A9?opendocument

Bill Gates, while addressing a conference in Bangalore, has said that Indian programmers are the best.

"The best programmers for Microsoft come from India,"

Well i belong to UK and my currency is twice stronger to your currency but still i pay fair price for the services someone else renders for me, irrespective of which region and what currency the person earns in. Its gets as simple as that.

And Last but not the least .....This is not a place for you.

Best Regards

 

We all programmer appreciate such policies.

 

I understand where the guys are coming from but it's the price factor that gets outsourcing working...in the face or harder management issues, cultural differences etc.

"As a result of all this competition for talent, wages are rapidly increasing for Indian tech grads with state-of-the-art skills. Annual salaries for some are approaching $30,000 U.S"

MS/google pay top end staff $30k in india but $80k for a stanard bod in the US?

informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2006/11/google_microsof.html

it's just business sense...Apple don't make ipods in china for the ambience.

 

Wow, every post I read changes my mind on this. I'm not even sure what to think really. When I pay people, I pay what I said I would pay. I like to let my employees know what they are getting paid before they even need to, like in the thread that I post in the very first post. If somebody doesn't like how much I'm paying, they simply do not reply. If they do like what I am paying, of course, they will reply. Pick a price and let them know, then you won't have these kind of arguments going on in an internet marketing forum (not a currency debate forum).

 

free lancer from india do a good job never had trouble excet the time difference to try to stay in contact sorry you had a bad expirence but there not all bad

 

I'm not really seeing the big issue here. Market rate for an Indian PHP developer is much less than the going market rate for an American PHP developer. This is tied to 1000 different things ranging from educational background, respective local economies, cost of living, and many other factors. It's capitalism, folks. If you don't like what BusinessCoach is willing to pay, move on. Perhaps he's willing to pay a premium price for an American developer because he's sympathetic to the insanely rising costs in this country as our economy goes down the shitter. Maybe he just prefers someone who can speak fluent English and he's willing to pay extra for the luxury? In any case, it doesn't matter; he's free to pay whatever he wishes, aside from any local labor laws where he is located.

P.S. Added you on AIM, waiting to get in touch with you.

 

"==You live in a foriegn country you do not try to charge me the same prices as someone in the usa (for instance $30 an hour, but you live in India so i;m paying you 1200rs per hour...NO ONE MAKES THAT)"

---

so if someone from the UK were to do it, you would pay them roughly double the amount you offer in USD?

 

too many replies for me to answer each one individually.

First off thanks to the coders who got in touch with me...I'm sure I won't get any more because instead of a for hire thread, it's been hijacked by coders with political motivations.

ATTENTION INDIANS::::: Now when you read this one of two things will happen.

1) You will take what I say personally (you shouldn't) and get offended

or

2) You will see what americans feel, make some changes, and GIVE YOURSELF A COMPETITIVE EDGE!

With that said, let me add, i hire freelancers for php work, however, I also own a development company.

We do all kinds of stuff from multimedia, flash, hosting etc. On the programming end we prefer windows based languages. But also I own a very large marketing company...helping businesses make money.

The ONLY thing I outsource is php work...ever. and yes I DO HIRE INDIANS...OFTEN

Now, often times i get new clients from people who have worked with people from india, and are totally unhappy, and though they saved a few bucks, are happy to pay me a premium.

It is actually EASY to get customers who dealt with indians FIRST....because they are so unhappy!

Recently a client wrote to me:

This is not just me...take a look at the freelance boards...MORE AND MORE people say "NO INDIANS" when they are seeking bids.

There are lots of reasons MANY people are unhappy with overseas work

Here are the MAIN COMPLAINTS:

1) Language - although people in India THINK they speak proper english, they don't understand vernacular, slang and common language...so they sound like modern day SHAKESPEAR's...sentence structure, and spelling often get confused making it seem like your talking to someone about 8 years old. Sure, anyone can learn the ENGLISH language, but that's a far cry for american CULTURE. This is not to bash, just pointing out the fact, it makes it difficult to work with someone who has never set foot in the states.

Face it, AMERICANS are arrogant...if you can't speak OUR language, we have little patience. Thats the general rule...I was raised differently, however, so I take the time to try to communicate, unfortunately when someone is paying money, they don't want to have to explain themselves over and over for simple concepts.

Look at the responses in this thread... a 3rd grade grammar teacher would have a fit!

Simple things like This and That...makes it obvious english is not your FIRST language (even though on your resume you say it is)

An indian used Proper english and say "Yes, I am able to complete this job for you"

an american would say "sure, I can do that"

Which one is correct? An English book will tell you the first one, 98% of people in USA will say the second one.

another common example

"i am familiar with this" (the book)

"I know about that" (usa english)

the 1st actually sounds weird, strange and therefore, to an american is INCORRECT


2) Technically based, not culturally based - when someone wants work done, they have to SPECIFY EACH AND EVERY STEP...if not, it wont get done. The reality is, a person should be able to say "I would like a login system"...and its UNDERSTOOD this includes registration with email verification, lost password retrieval, and duplicate user prevention. Again, goes back to knowing a language versus knowing a culture.

In america we encourage self sufficiency, we encourage initiative, we like people who go the extra mile....In india, its obviously different, because an Indian programmer does exactly what they are told to do, no more and no less.

SO, if I say hey, I want a site that does what youtube does...the indian programmer says...."can you write a detailed specification sheet"..?????????

It takes MORE TIME to supervise someone from india on what to do, and then to have to go over the actual job to make sure its correct, than someone here in the states.

3) TIme zone difference....when the USA is doing business, India is Sleeping...and vice versa....people don't want to wait the wee hours of the night to get a status update.

4) Long distance..well speaking on the phone is very expensive, with the exception of those who have a VOIP or SKYPE in which the quality is bad....but on top of that, trying to have a VERBAL conversation with someone who speaks english as a secondary language is worse than a written one.

5) Poor quality...indians best coders in world? hardly...i would say best in world are German, but thats a diff story. THe truth is, poor coding practices are used. Time and time again, i have seen peoples code that was sloppy, insecure, unstable, buggy, uncommented, no logical framework...and overall ignorance of best practices.
Dell, AOL, JCPENNY and many others USED to use indians for support, but stopped..why? because of complaints from customers. The reason people go to indians...is price...plain and simple...if they were truly the "best" they would make MORE than americans.

6) lack of understanding americans
The bottom line is, there are certain things that you have to be american to understand, if you were not raised in the USA, you just wont "get it"...that said, many miscommunications come from outsourcing to india and other places, due to a total difference in culture.

7) no accountability
THis comes into play on bigger jobs....if your in india and I pay you several 1000 dollars....and you "disappear", i have no clue on how to even START to go about finding you. Here in the USA, there are plenty of ways to first verify who your dealing with, and then two go after them if you get screwed. Lots of my customers were screwed over by shady programmers who "disappeared" or "couldn't finish the job"

Indians are not the only ones, just the most prominent ones.

I have nothing against Indians....just people who think they should be paid a Kings wages.

Kudos to Indians for SPEAKING more than one language...kudos to ANYONE who takes the time to learn a PROGRAMMING language

but just because you know the basics..doesn't mean you are entitled to the same amount.

Now when Indians can:

-Work on my project 9am-5pm EST or CST
-Understand what I say the FIRST TIME, like any person raised in america
-Give me the quality of an educated experienced programmer
-not require me to point out step by step every detail
-Talk to me on the phone about the project
-have someone who TRULY understand english communicate with me

THEN, and MAYBE THEN I will consider paying them the same rate.

Until then, Indians are seen as the lowest bidder, and only when price is the biggest factor are they to be chosen.


I mean the truth is AMERICANS ARE LAZY!!!


the same quality issues arise with american coders...who half-ass the job, disappear in the middle of it, or can't finish it.

many americans do not deserve the wage they get.

GOOD INDIAN CODERS have a BETTER WORK ETHIC than USA...they will keep working until its done (or you get tired of trying to get it done)

so in that sense, I agree they are "better" programmers. But there are a lot of obstacles to overcome before i call them "equal" (pay-worth wise) programmers to USA coders.

 

YES! and I DO.

I have customers in the UK...they pay me HALF what they normally pay (BP sterling is about 2x USD)

in addition, I have some servers in the UK for customers....it costs me DOUBLE!!!! because i pay in USD

back when the USD was strong, the canadian looney was about HALF the USD...I put servers in Canada, because I paid them HALF what I would pay elsewhere for the same service.

Guys. its how a global economy works.... you don't have to like it or understand it...just know you live by whether you choose to or not.