Warez is just one example. I do not think that we should need to compare crimes but do you really think that software piracy is worse than child molestation? Why after so much debate, the best solution possible is just to move it to "test" until a "solution" can be found? The REAL solution is very simple and obvious to any reasonable person. Sites that deal with pedophilia as medical condition or crime should be moved to normal DMOZ under proper category and everything else under adult which in many ways implies pedophilia as accepted sexual practice must be deleted.
I am not an ODP Admin. The to-ing and fro-ing of the Chats and Forums category is a bit complex. I'll try to keep this brief. I may not succeed. The normal procedure in the ODP is to make moves after debate. That makes perfect sense usually. Imagine the confusion otherwise. But in this case there was concern that delay caused by the debate was in itself a problem. The existence of the category in the public directory was seen as so provocative that nerves were fraying, which is not the best atmosphere in which to calmly discuss the finer points of Guidelines. So an editall moved the category to Test (and pending the move de-listed the sites in it.) However by this time Admins were in discussion over the entire Pedophilia category and the initial reaction from them was that normal rules should be followed and nothing moved until debate concluded. However there has been a change of heart on that. The situation is unusual. The category is due for a move to Test. Because of the way the software works the category move won't go through immediately. By the time it does the Admins should be ready with their statement.
As far as I can tell, the only thing unusual about this situation is that it is getting a fair amount of negative publicity...
Negative publicity is unusual? The ODP gets attacked constantly in webmaster/SEO forums. You have personally been campaigning against the ODP ever since I first looked into this forum. That general growling has no effect on editorial decisions. This case is unusual because of the way editors feel about the sexual abuse of children. That arouses such horror in people. It is scarcely in the same bracket as a discussion on where to place left-handed yellow widgets.
Stop playing games. This isn't one person complaining - this is a lot. And the negative publicity in this case include editors and ex-editors and cannot be dismissed as it usually is by DMOZ as the ramblings of a disgruntled webmaster who can't get a site listed. You know that. We all know that. Cut the crap.
So let me get this straight. DMOZ hid the sites from public view, then re-published them? And now they are hiding them again? Sounds like they were trying to pull the wool over the public's eyes. What's next? They rename the categories they are in so that it's harder to find them next time? Plain and simple - when they show up again, there must be a rush to get everything out to the press. Who exactly are the AOL overlords? Is there a public set of contact info? Either the AOL employees are clueless, or they are conspirators. Either way it is unacceptable. A headline "AOL supports child pornography" will affect their stock price. This is a clear cut issue. Any debate surrounding it is assenine. And frankly, if AOL has any power, they should kill the entire adult section.
I wrote an article on the issue and posted it to a couple of the free article distribution sites. While I welcome the "apparant" decision by DMOZ to move the section out of the public area of the directory, I do not believe that should be allowed to silence the debate. Right now Congress is bashing Google for caving into China's view of what is legal and what is not. But, I do not believe that Congress' strong support for free speech on the internet extends to having alleged child porn sites listed on Time-Warner->AOL's DMOZ or the Google Directory. Didn't Google buy a billion dollar interest in AOL in December, making part of the ownership? FYI, today's Oprah is about a boy who, at 13, became an internet porn star. She will have the public primed to hear more about this issue. The link is here: http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200602/20060215/slide_20060215_284_101.jhtml I submitted my piece to goarticles.com and ezinearticles.com. It is also published at my tech site. Please feel free to republish it.
If you knuckleheads are going to try to get the media involved, you need to at least get your facts straight. There is a world of difference between listing a website that contains child pornography and listing a website that has a chatroom/forum for pedophiles. Now, I am against listing either of those - but they are not the same thing. If any media person actually decided to look into this (doubtful in itself), they would hopefully check at least a few of the facts first. If your claims don't line up with the facts, your credibility will = 0. Just a thought.
I understand your concern over media involvement but if you looked at the sites listed, you could see that they use it to exchange pictures too and some has pictures that clearly shows very young boys. I suppose a media attention will not be very positive for some of the editors since it can open the door to Pandora box of deep links and corruption in DMOZ at the same time.
I'm not concerned. If the ODP is doing something wrong, then they deserve the attention, and if they aren't, then nothing will happen. I'm just trying to point out that "going to the media" with false or misleading dats will most likely result in you being ignored, so it might be a better idea to be honest about what is happening.
I didn't mention child pornography. I did mention that ODP links to a site where someone posted that told a story of a four year old girl who was sucking on his finger, and that he wished she was sucking something else.
If the categories are moved to "Test" then it's unlikely that they will resurface any time soon. Which personally I believe would be no bad thing.
It's my understanding that they were already moved to "Test" once, then republished a short time thereafter.
Why was the whole internal discussion which was originally was available where most editors might see it, moved off to the internal adult area, which most editors avoid? Why is it there there is no clear disclosure to would be editors that there is an adult section of DMOZ? Many editors have joined and found to their displeasure that they have become part of a directory of porn sites. The editor who originally reviewed and listed these sites was almost certainly a paedophile. The sites have been sitting there for years. Why is it that after he was terminated was the category allowed to continue for all this time? The existence of these sites was known at the top level within ODP editors. The adult part of DMOZ relies on the fact that most editors either do not know it exists or are aware and keep away from it. Therefore the actions of editors in that area are not subject to the same amount of supervision as the rest of the directory. DMOZ has a responsibility to now make full disclosure to all editors as to what has been going on. This whole discussion is now causing much internal conflict because someone made public one category and one site. What other equally offensive sites are buried in adult, and who will have the stomach to go through and find them?
It is the standard in forums to have discussions that relate to specific areas be contained in that area. For example this forum - anything related to ODP is in the Search Engines-Directories-ODP/DMOZ forum; anything related to Google is in the Google forum; and anything related to Yahoo is in the Yahoo forum. The same thing happens in the internal ODP forums - if a Business issue is being discussed it happens in the Business forum, if a Regional issue is being discussed it happens in the Regional forum, and if an Adult issue is being discussed it happens in the Adult forum. It is not a "secret" area - all editors are able to participate in the discussion.
Don't you agree that association of DMOZ with pedophile sites effects the whole directory and reputation of all editors and not only the adult editors and therefore it should be in a place that is noticed by everyone? May be you see nothing wrong with people who joined DMOZ to edit Art category or kids category to be associated with pedophile sites but I am not sure that is the way most people see it.
Every internal discussion - perhaps with the exception of social discussions - has an effect on the whole directory. Those who are concerned with the whole directory will read the whole forum (or scan the topics at a minimum). I edit in Shopping, Sports, Kids & Teens, Business, and Regional - so why am I reading the Adult, Recreation, Society, and Arts forums also? Because I want to know what is going on throughout the directory - good and bad. There are some editors who don't even read one post in the forums - what do you expect someone to do: send an email to every editor every time there is an issue that might effect them? - that's why there is a forum in the first place.
From what I have seen, I think at a certain point the decision made sense continuing the discussion in the respective category, which in fact is Adult. I hope you did not avoid going there and participating in the discussion yourself! Literaly every organisation whether it is the Red Cross, the Salvation or the U.S. Army has some "dead bodies" hidden in some basement, where they would not be very happy, letting everbody know about. I do not expect DMOZ being a better place than society itself. Now, I guess you know where to find the answer. Should be part of what we are doing, to get this changed. Thatfor you have to make yourself heard also internally, which means you have to fight for getting things disclosed. Once again, assuming that you are an editor, your questions not being purely rethoric ones, and you being concerned about getting things changed, not only in Adult, you can't avoid going there. Bringing this to an end, I hope those chats and forums in Adult in some way offering support and being a resort for child molesters remain buried where they are. If it would be up to me, all those objected listings including all (multiple) "deeplinks" in Adult could get deleted right away.
But the data is not false. And that's precisely why so many editors are paying attention to this thread. 1. As nevetS already pointed out, they already spent time in "Test" and then were returned. 2. If the decision is made that those listings are inappropriate (and any other decision will be itself inappropriate), what is the point of moving them to "Test" at all? Why are they not being moved to "Trash" which is where they belonged in the fvirst place?
Maybe not secret, but since the rest of the internal forums in alpha order, it's gives a mixed message hiding it at the end.