DMOZ Submission Reward - $1K

Perhaps you are unaware of how few of the seemingly innocent in the Resource Zone really are that innocent. Without being able to examine a questioner's submission history in detail you might get the impression that many people are unfairly treated. Indeed numerous times I have thought a comment to be more than a little harsh. Then when you did deeper you are actually dealing with someone who makes Richard Nixon appear the most honest man that ever walked the planet.

 

Alternatively, my experience in RZ is that every new poster is immediately accused of heinous crimes against humanity and the Internet as a whole.

The DMOZ editors act like mentally deranged prison guards whose wives beat them at home and then they come to DMOZ to take their frustrations out on innocent webmasters.

 

I don't think 2 wrongs make a right.

 

I'm reminded of Roger Waters' song in The Wall...

 

Alternatively you come here and people use the rep system to deliver childish personal abuse covertly. Sweet. And to that person I would say "apologist" suggests there is something to apologise for. I'm very proud of the DMOZ project, what it has and continues to achieve, what it stands for, and how it refuses to bow to commercial webmaster pressure. So call me any other names you like, I have a thick skin and it is water off a duck's back, but apologist I object to.

When someone is taking the piss and trying to make editors seem like lazy corrupt self-serving s.o.b.s do you just let them get away with it? Sometimes you bite your tongue, othertimes they get what they deserve frankly. I say again you don't see everything out in the public forums. Someone who gets their head snapped off who appears to be quite reasonable may just have offered a bribe via private message. You just can't tell what is behind it unless you have the full story.

The thing is that most of the editors in the Resource Zone, and those who visit further afield, are happy to answer questions they are able to answer, they are proud of what they have achieved. But most editors willing to answer questions get regularly beaten up on external forums and so have given up. There are no answers we can give that will satisfy some. Nevertheless some editors will still try for the benefit of those willing to listen but you need that rhino hide. MikeDammann - I've had discussions with you on Resource Zone (both of us under different names) and they have been constructive. If all such discussions could take similar paths then things might be different. But then you are willing to listen. Sorry to destroy some of your street credibility!

 

Think skin, thick head, whatever.

Well, as one of the people who joined the RZ only to be assailed with verbal abuse and all sorts of nasty accusations, derogatory comments, and general mistreatment... I would say that I definitively have the full story on myself.

Your story doesn't hold up under the harsh light of reality.

 

No it doesn't - I think you need to take a closer look at some of the piling-on threads at DMOZ before you blame it all on the "outsiders" who have gone there seeking information.

Ultimately, if you really give a damn about the public perception of DMOZ, and presumably if you're here defending it you should, I suggest you stop trying to tell us why we're wrong and start doing what Alucard to his credit has done, which is to explore WHY the public perception is so universally negative (DMOZ editors and sycophants trying to suck up to editors in the hopes of getting a site listed excluded).

 

I did say that there are rare occasions where the innocent do get caught in crossfire and it is regrettable. If you were innocent and treated unfairly then it should not have happened. But it is not the norm for someone to appear to be mistreated without cause. When someone has dealt with queries from 20 spammers in a row and you are the 21st it is unfortunate if you get tarred with the same brush. It might be wrong but it is understandable how it might happen. You say you have the definitive story on your own individual case but no-one is able to verify that apart from you either, so it proves nothing. Though I am sorry you had a bad experience if you did not deserve it. It is a shame your reality and mine are different but hey, that's life.

 

brizzie, you don't need a personal story - all you have to do is read a few threads there at random - they are everywhere.

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder whether this isn't less a matter of different realities and more a matter of blinkered vision...

 

Brizzie, let me ask you this:

please identify a few causes for me that justify talking down to people, making fun of them, not giving them the answers they are looking for and ignoring their questions that they came in there for. You have a problem with people calling you names in the reputation? How do you think it feels to go into the RZ with one question and getting insulted but 10 different editors because you have submitted your site 10 times over the last 4 years. So please give me a few examples, so I know what to measure the justifications by.


I suggest that the next time you're in the RZ, you look at the regular threads with an open mind and not just talk behind the regular posters' back in the editor only section.

There is a thing like ethics, and some lines should never be crossed. Some of the editor behaviour is outright shameful. I do understand that it is a small percentage of ODP editors who resorts to that, but please don't come in here trying to tell us that black is white.

 

I am not defending DMOZ as I don't think there is anything to defend. And I don't think I have any opinion one way or another on how DMOZ is perceived by its avowed enemies which cannot be in any way described as the public or as universal. I'm not an evangelist looking to convert anyone. What I am interested in is in correcting misconceptions which are touted around. Because those who are interested in getting their sites listed in DMOZ, rather than those who just want to destroy it, might find that more useful than negativity.

 

I don't think that anyone wants to really destroy DMOZ. I think that everyone wants a piece of the action. I don't think this is as much about DMOZ, but rather professional conduct which has not been used in the Resource Zone. I know that there is a difference between the average editor who puts a few hours a week into editing or whatever, and the life-less ones who enjoy waiting for new webmasters to bash. If you are not one of them, great!, but please don't try to tell us that they don't exits.

 

That tells me pretty much everything I need to know about you and the position you have chosen to take, I think: There is nothing wrong with DMOZ - it's the rest of the world that has a problem.

I'll give you and DMOZ more suggestion and then I'm done here: Try to recruit more Alucards and a lot fewer blind men and power mongers and you might, just might, salvage a little bit of goodwill in the world beyond the delusional walls of DMOZ. It won't save DMOZ but at least it may allow it to fade out with a little dignity.

 

MikeDammann - loaded questions and I feel like I'm walking into a series of traps here designed to get me to say something that can be incorrectly interpreted so forgive me if I am careful.

A large proportion of questioners in Resource Zone do not tell the truth. They know they are not telling the truth. We know they are not telling the truth. Observers don't and just see a bizarre exchange. Stopping the status requests has ended most of that. You also get a reasonable number of known spammers trying to extract information to aid in their activities. They know they are spammers, we know they are spammers. Observers don't and just see a bizarre exchange. They still stop by. Then you get those who want to accuse editors of being lazy, corrupt, self-serving etc, etc, and they tend not to garner a warm welcome.

There are others who visit Resource Zone, ask a question that is answered fully and professionally, and leave wiser than when they arrived.

Finally there are a small number who are given a hard time unjustly. That is wrong and editors regret that it sometimes happens as much as anyone else. Being treated unjustly on a forum isn't something confined to Resource Zone though. It shouldn't happen anywhere but it does. Unfortunately.

Strange though it might seem, it is extremely rare that private talk goes on in the editor only section. We report a need for a moderator and discuss anything related to how we can improve things - whether a stock answer might be misleading for example. It is incredibly boring.

Forgive me but I have been very careful throughout not to say anything as an absolute. In a forum such as this the negatives are bound to be highlighted and the positives dismissed. Of course injustices happen, no-one denies that though we can disagree with the frequency, no-one is perfect 100% of the time. But painting things primarily black when IMO they are primarily white shouldn't be left unanswered. And I can understand why they might appear blacker than they are because observers can't see the full picture of what is going on.

But the focus of the Resource Zone has changed - editor application status questions, and quality control reporting, that is about it. Virtually all other questions are now in the FAQs on the site. The opportunities for people to be treated or appear to be treated unjustly are substantially reduced. Positive change? Apparently most webmasters disagree but most editors agree.

Not really. I just think it is strange behaviour for adults and quite laughable, pathetic even.

 

Brizzie, no one is out to get you. I don't know who at DMOZ is trying to put this in people's heads, but I don't try to get anyone. I know that many webmasters lie. But treating everyone without the benefit of the doubt, is IMO a very bad practice. People make mistakes. Sure, you need to pick out the a-holes, but simply labelling everyone as such as not beneficial to anyone.

Same if we assumed you were in the same state of mental health as Mr. Hutcheson over there.


It really all comes down to who you are as a person and who you want to associate yourself with. There are many good editors, but the ones who are the loudest and representing DMOZ in the RZ ... sorry, not good !

 

I believe in the concepts and principles of DMOZ as do tens of thousands of other past and present editors. The rest of the world don't have a problem with a bunch of people getting together to take part in a volunteer project, a hobby, and sharing their work freely with others. I see a small and frankly irrelevant band of ardent detractors who have the problem and for most their motivation is mainly financial and as such most of them are looking in the wrong direction - DMOZ has no control over how downstream data users use the data. Editors don't edit to gain the goodwill of anyone least of all desperate webmasters. They edit because they share a belief in the original concepts and principles. And they will continue to edit and build the directory for as long as there are people who believe in it. In terms of the need for an alternative to search engines manipulated by SEO, and directories based on ability to pay, that need remains stronger than ever before. And it has outlived numerous premature obituaries that have circulated from its inception to this day.

 

No Mike, but you do ask loaded questions!

Of course it is. But I don't think people quite realise just how many posters at Resource Zone are not on the level. And most editors, most of the time, give most questioners the benefit of the doubt until they see evidence to the contrary.

You know I'm not going to comment on anyone specifically. The bulk of the editors who post on Resource Zone are there to genuinely help non-editors with genuine questions and actively try to be as clear as they can be in their answers.

 

It's not that big of a deal to me since I haven't been on the RZ in ages. I prefer taking advice from editors in here if I have a question. This seems to be the only forum where there is true communication between DMOZ editors and webmasters. But I do wonder about how you guys feel when you see some of the abuse at the RZ. Do you think that it's good, smart, helpful to use the kinds of tactics displayed?

 

And they do an impressive job of not gaining goodwill! Bravo!

 

That's a big part of the problem - that you see criticisms of DMOZ as irrelevant.

That's the official DMOZ line, I know. It's propaganda. But if it makes you feel better

Yes... too often, those involve closed door politics and promoting their own sites...