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DMOZ Editors - Digital Point Alliance

Discussion in 'ODP / DMOZ' started by Radamanto, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. #1
    Dear DP members and DMOZ editors;

    I believe its time to generate a help link between our beloved DigitalPoint Forum and DMOZ. I see many posts speaking about how difficult it is to get your submissions noted on DMOZ regardless of the quality of the submitted website. I also see there are quite a few DMOZ editors present in DP, like myself. Therefore I invite you all (DP members with good websites & DMOZ editors), to begin exchanging ideas (questions) and specific submission information to see if the process of submitting and being accepted becomes easier within our community.

    I hope this finds you all well and I´ll be very happy if given the opportunity to help the DP community in every possible way.

    Cordially,

    Radamanto.
    DP Member & DMOZ Editor.
     
    Radamanto, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  2. not_banned

    not_banned Greenhorn

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    #2
    nice to hear about such discussion thread started by a Dmoz editor. This will be useful for website owners and also to Dmoz editors to keep the Dmoz quality maintained :)
    *Imp thread*
     
    not_banned, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  3. Renatus

    Renatus Member

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    #3
    Well I would be interested to know if that site I submitted some six years ago is still in the queue, was rejected for some reason, or whether it has vanished without a trace, for starters :D
     
    Renatus, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  4. Radamanto

    Radamanto Active Member

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    #4
    Great, if you wish, post the category to which you submitted your site and if a DMOZ editor is in capacity of editing or overseeing that particular category, he could contact you to see which website it is and give you an update with regards to its status. He could also make suggestions with regards to how to improve the website if its content is deemed inadequate for the Directory.

    Cheers and good luck Renatus.
     
    Radamanto, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  5. Qryztufre

    Qryztufre Prominent Member

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    #5
    Its nice to see an editor that cares here rather then one that resorts to personal attacks and thread derailment.

    In my opinion, the first step to making the ODP what it once was is as simple as communication!

    The second step of course would be to smash the corruption and self serving nature of the ODP itself. Look at your beloved founders affiliated sites & the fact that AOL allowed him to automatically list thousands upon thousands of pages within the ODP that in no way shape or form conform to the guidelines (Skenta & his syndicated topix listings).

    The 3rd step is once again communication... as even if the debate on point number two is never resolved, what can truly help the ODP is just being civil and communicating with not just the end user, but with the submitter (whether or not they are a webmaster). The role of the webmaster can be forgotten for the most part, as the submission option IS there for anyone to use, and it is being used... but with the queue being optional, and there being no communication, that leaves a potential for sites to sit there for years & years with no one looking at it, and the poor person that submitted it clueless as to it's status. Not so much of a service by ANY standard.

    Either way though, change must come from within, and as it stands, many of the editors that post here do not want change... so the discussions are mostly circular. I hope that you can stick around long enough to make a difference!
     
    Qryztufre, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  6. jimnoble

    jimnoble Well-Known Member

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    #6
    We tried providing status report over at RZ in its early days. We gave up because it didn't help anybody and it was just a waste of everybody's time.

    Either a website is listable or it isn't. If it's listable, we'll get to it in time and list it. It's entirely unreasonable to expect an editor to give priority to some particular site merely because its owner is sweet talking or ranting.

    If it isn't listable, the usual cause is business model and no amount of advice can usually fix that. A secondary cause is that the website is broken. Shouldn't the owner know about that already? We aren't the style police and we don't care how 'ugly' a website is. Provided that it's navigable and contains useful and unique content, we're happy. MFAs with content cribbed from Wikipedia, the CIA fact book or one of the many content mills are neither useful nor unique - but the owner already knows that :).

    The mystery of listability is fully explained at http://www.dmoz.org/guidelines/include.html . We don't decline to list a website because it's been suggested with a hyped title/description or to the wrong place: Instead, we rewrite them and move them to the right place.

    Most editors who have tried to respond to website specific queries soon tire of the abuse, threats and yes, even real life stalking.

    Most of the folks whingeing in this forum are very busy people - sadly, too busy to read the available documentation before sounding off. Even the sticky 101 thread at the top is largely ignored.

    Lastly, there are hundreds of millions of websites that we haven't yet looked at. It's gonna take time.

    /rant
     
    jimnoble, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  7. Anonymously

    Anonymously Well-Known Member

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    #7
    There is a perfectly good system, it falls down where there are not enough volunteers to choose to review the sites in the suggestions pool, and then there are large delays. Best solution is always to enlist more editors, more sites reviewed, sites get listed (where they are listable) quicker. Anyone reading the guidelines (instead of just sounding off and complaining) can tell if their site is really listable. If a suggestion is it will be listed eventually, if not it won't be. Does it help to massively take up editor time to tell a site owner this? Also DMOZ is not a listing service for web masters, an editor who knows his own areas can often find good sites more quickly than spending time checking through the small percentage, compared to the whole amount of sites on the net, of sites that are being pushed by their owners because they seek value added from a listing.

    You are also raising expectations of site owners that editors on here will be willing not just to say "The site is still pending review" or "the site has been rejected" (already tried at RZ and it generated incredible heat) and expectations that people posting on here may get sites listed earlier,and that would be even more of a mistake. If you want to seriously raise the issue of telling suggesters (may not just be owners) the position of their suggested site, I suggest that you join Resource Zone as an editor and argue the case where this used to happen and in an area where there is great experience of this.

    If you are raising the issue of telling owners if a site is listable or not and perhaps what to do to make it listable, then are site owners not capable of reading guidelines and if they want advice beyond that there are many people who will gladly look at those things for a fee. Surely we give up enough time reviewing and listing sites for those who want to use categorised data for searching without becoming unpaid advisers to site owners.
     
    Anonymously, Dec 1, 2011 IP
  8. Qryztufre

    Qryztufre Prominent Member

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    #8
    I think that it is VERY important to know and understand that many of the submissions for sites do come from those that want to use categorized data, as well as from many site owners that truly want their site listed for such people. Its also important to know and understand that not all webmasters are in it for SEO or linkage to boost their site in search engines...

    Many webmasters are even willing to change their sites to conform to ODP standards, but by just reading the ADD page, they simply do not fully comprehend what those standards are. As if it were just up to what is said on the ADD page, then many more sites would be listable then by following the rest of the guidelines.

    However, when it comes to a site that is 'almost' listable, or a site that has only one or two flaws, and such sites are submitted, there is no way to tell if it got rejected 5 years ago or if it is still waiting to be reviewed. By most standards, waiting 5 years for a review is way too long, and if they have continuously added to their site, then they have resubmitted, they run the risk of getting banned rather then listed. This is a BAD thing for those wanting to utilize the ODP as it should be used, and it's a lose/lose situation for everyone, including the ODP.
     
    Qryztufre, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  9. Laceygirl

    Laceygirl Banned

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    #9
    I'm sorry to say I doubt that dp members and the Dmoz editors will be able to freely exchange ideas.

    Most of the senior digitalpoint members have learned to stay away from the Dmoz section of the forum. the reason for this is because many(not all) of the editors treat Dmoz like its the mafia and take it really serious. A lot of editors are fairly cruel, difficult to talk to, offensive, and well........full of themselves. Like I said, not all of them but there is enough that we do not want to pretend to freely discuss stuff as an equal.
     
    Laceygirl, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  10. raconnor

    raconnor Greenhorn

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    #10
    From my experiences it's left me with a negative opinion toward DMOZ:

    1) DMOZ doesn't matter that much in reality (but for some reason people make a big deal about it)

    2) I've actually applied to be an editor before but I was turned down in a glorious fashion.The reasoning given by whomever made me sound like I was a retard or something. They said that I didn't have enough prior knowledge of the category I applied for (even though I know this niche inside and out--I've been working in this field for quite a while), that my written English skills were not up to the level they want, and that my 'suggested sites' part of the application were not sites that deserved any authority. ..seriously? The category wasn't even one that I have any sites in but since I've been involved in this topic offline (and frequent sites that would fall in this category) I thought I would try to help out and become an editor. I had nothing to gain from being an editor so I guess it's good that I got denied in the end.
    I am not sure what kind of secret magic that DMOZ editors must conjure to accept or deny an application but it must be Tolkien worthy. In all honesty I'm sure a monkey can do what an editor does and people just get denied because a certain editor wants only a select few sites to remain in DMOZ. It's not hard to believe that someone with a site would deny or ignore any competition for that select niche. After all, more competition means less pay for your site.

    3) I have submitted sites before some sites even existed yet the fresher site has gotten accepted and mine has just been ignored. I've actually submitted four sites in the same niche and only one was accepted. Before you start thinking "oh, the other three must have not been relevant" I'll just go ahead and stop you; of the four sites the one that got accepted was the youngest of the four sites and probably the least likely to get accepted as far as "exact relevance" is concerned (though it still fit the category; it's just that there aren't exact categories for some micro niches as there are others). Just as a tie up between point one and this: the site that is listed in DMOZ has no noticeable advantage in income compared to the three that are not listed, nor does it have any significant advantage in the SERPs.

    All in all, DMOZ is a crap shoot and all the people worrying about it could spend their time doing much more useful things as far as SEO is concerned. Opening up a 'help link' between DMOZ and DP seems like something that should be done after the corruption and bias is taken care of within DMOZ itself (not to mention the editors who sale DMOZ listings). /rant
     
    raconnor, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  11. snooks

    snooks Well-Known Member

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    #11
    And we are supposed to believe everything you have written, especially Point 2 ? Unsuccessful aplicants are sent a generic email and at the option of the reviewing Meta, perhaps some extra information. I know this for a fact because i wasnt always an editor and applied numerous times, failing each and every time, until i finally got it right.

    They dont expect perfection, they basically want two things:

    1. Honesty and full disclosure of any related sites
    2. They want you to show that you can be taught and that you can learn how to edit.

    Well apparently you cant :) Control cannot be made by simply one Editor and the review can be done by any one of the META Editors, so your reasoning simply isnt sound.

    Unless you were specifically told not to apply again, then you are free to try to become an Editor again. Its fun....
     
    snooks, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  12. raconnor

    raconnor Greenhorn

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    #12
    That's the response I got. This guy doesn't even know what an apostrophe is..

    Terse..really? Just look up some of the actual listings in DMOZ: "Love Actually - Trailers." Yep, that's a real winner. I may not have provided a complete description of every single detail about the sites that I used on my application but I definitely listed as much as the rest of DMOZ.

    It doesn't really matter whether or not you believe me; I was just trying to share my experience with DMOZ. If you want to be offended then that's your prerogative as an editor. No worries.
     
    raconnor, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  13. Laceygirl

    Laceygirl Banned

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    #13
    I rest my case.

    Wow, I didn't even think about that.
    It almost pisses me off more than how google sells keywords to big franchise companies.
     
    Laceygirl, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  14. DocuMaker

    DocuMaker Active Member

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    #14
    My main question about all of this is why now? Why here? This is the first time I've seen a DMOZ editor invite discussion on a 3rd party site. Could it have something to do with Panda? Is DMOZ affected by Google's square dance? Do they need fresh, new quality content now? After all this time? Alexa shows DMOZ is definitely losing traffic, so I wonder what's going on.

    So many questions!
     
    DocuMaker, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  15. DocuMaker

    DocuMaker Active Member

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    #15
    I stopped worrying about it too, and so have millions of others. Perhaps that's the problem. There's so much text out there that literally warns people to forget about it.
     
    DocuMaker, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  16. Laceygirl

    Laceygirl Banned

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    #16
    I'm sure the topic creator is not speaking for Dmoz, but just thought it would be a nice topic.
     
    Laceygirl, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  17. Anonymously

    Anonymously Well-Known Member

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    #17
    I think the editor is a newbie at dP and at DMOZ.
    I can't see anything wrong with that letter of refusal. You did get feedback, and it may or may not have been good. Difficult to know when we do not see the sites submitted or why other comments were made.

    Interesting to add, that people want editors to list sites and complain of the delay, yet they also want us to evaluate sites on here, give site updates, review new editor applications and give comprehensive comments about why someone has been refused, expect us to keep 5 million sites on the directory up to date, want us to respond on sites like this to why has my site not been listed, accept abuse when we are accused of selling listings and open to bribery. You know we collect URL's as our HOBBY, we work in our spare time, I know both Snooks and Jim Noble and I am certain that none of us has ever taken a penny for hours and hours of work as is true for almost every editor and when the very odd one goes astray more than a ton of bricks falls on their heads. Indeed Snooks had to contact the police because of phone calls at home from site owners wanting to get listed.

    We want to be able to pursue our hobby to collect sites and list them, we really do not have any interest in any value a listing might give, our task as editors is to build categories for people who want to use such data to search the net.I had hoped that Google dropping a copy of our directory would allow us to get on with that hobby, but seemingly not.

    There are some people who post on here who really do want to try and insult editors so much that they stop editing, mostly it just stops us posting on here. We choose to spend our other spare time trying to show people what DMOZ is, how it works so that they have a better understanding of why their sites are not listed in the speed they would want and how to best present, in general terms, their sites, for a review.
     
    Anonymously, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  18. DocuMaker

    DocuMaker Active Member

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    #18
    @Anonymously, I truly think DMOZ has wonderful content for a damn, juicy book! Spill the beans. People love to buy that stuff. Death threats from webmasters?? Seriously?? Listening to House Of The Rising Sun puts this in an interesting perspective. LOL
     
    DocuMaker, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  19. Laceygirl

    Laceygirl Banned

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    #19
    Anonymously, you almost made an excellent point but I did catch you right here:
    Its impossible for you to assess that type of judgement call. When that's like me saying "No one who works for chevy has driven a ford." When you say this you sound like you have a majorly biased opinion on the matter. Over 90,000 people have been or are editors to date and you claim that none of them are dishonest.

    Take a look this topic.
    http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=1996205&highlight=dmoz
    You and your stupid friend creed are a bunch of jerks. So before you throw the we're volunteering our time for you, don't forget the overtime you put in by being a total Idiot with your gang of editors.
     
    Laceygirl, Dec 2, 2011 IP
  20. snooks

    snooks Well-Known Member

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    #20
    You dont believe him?? I wish i could find the DP thread but just a recap for you..........An Asian Man running a large shop in Sydney actually was posting in DP, checked out my signatures knowing i was an editor, did a whois and got my contact mobile number and home number. I was inundated with calls at all hours begging for a listing that eventually turned into THREATS for a listing.

    Given he emailed threats and they clearly matched the site he wanted listing and the whois data on his site, the Police became involved and sorted it out.

    But it wasnt very pleasant for my family and believe it or not, it happens. You can read more on a different forum
    http://www.v7n.com/forums/domain-name-forum/180769-registering-domain-names-security-issues.html

    So you claim its a nice little story :( I can tell you its my family he started messing with:( Then you expect me to be pleasant to everyone wanting a listing???? I went from being very approacable for advice to being cautious who i talk to:(
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
    snooks, Dec 2, 2011 IP