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Coop and the new Google Patent

Discussion in 'Co-op Advertising Network' started by t2dman, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. t2dman

    t2dman Peon

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    #61
    I am actually finding that there is a dampening for some of the search terms that I am using the network for. I don't like being less than what I consider I should be. I don't like having to use still more links to get the same effect, only to know that I will have to continue increasing - all because of what I perceive to be the dampening effect.

    And Shawn has also mentioned that he considers the dampening effect has been around for a while.

    Like E Tong, I don't consider that the alternative I mention is blatanty bad. If Google wants permanent links, then lets give it to them, lets not make a cross for our own backs with having rotating links. The alternative is very similar - a more sophisticated engine, and permanance.

    I just don't want to promote a method that is so blatantly against Googles stated direction and probably formula - rotating links.

    With permanent links we can both have the $thousands per month via click throughs (less a bit since rotating links are better for this part), and thousands through being top of the search engines. Top with very little potential for harm, or certainly less than with rotating links.

    I have worked very hard and continue to work at getting high PR links for my sites, like many others do. I don't like the idea that there is dampening of any effort.

    I am starting to be found for the text of rotating links on my main PR5 index page - top of New Zealand websites only, for the text of the links. But when people get there, the link is of course not there. I would rather have permanent links, so people who have found the link via Google, can actually go there. Yes they would be able to access it via Google cache of the page, but not too many people would look that far. Only us SEO types...

    The DP Co-op may not be blatant about it being a links exchange, but until now the main reason that people have been joining is that they get an increase in their rankings (and still do get increase). The effect has been as blatant, and many around the internet have commented as such. I have no problems with blatance in some areas, I want reliable results and just by changing from rotating to permanent, I can achieve that.
     
    t2dman, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  2. Homer

    Homer Spirit Walker

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    #62
    I joined this COOP about 2 weeks ago...don't hold your breath. Without many members it is difficult. In my case I have more than 20 domains so I moved one over to see how they operate. Not bad...but very human based, growth is very slow but steady.

    I believe Shawn has a day job :)
    All COOP members are hear for one reason, TO PROMOTE. If we feel it's not working we move on...we are business people and business has no emotion. If you feel the need to change DO IT.

    My rankings have been sliding at Google for a few weeks now. I have about 250k in weight that seems to be running thin right now. I think the COOP is but 1 element that can help promote your site. We cannot be solely dependant on this alone.
     
    Homer, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  3. digitalpoint

    digitalpoint Overlord of no one Staff

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    #63
    Agreed... anyone that does any one thing to promote a site is asking for problems. :)
     
    digitalpoint, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  4. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #64
    Google is one of the most intelligent engines. You can't fool it using the coop to get rankings. If that were possible, I would just invest $50,000 buying a few big sites with big PR, put up the coop and get a weight of 3 million, point that weight to any of my sites, and with a top ranking at google and with all the trafic I would receive I would get my investment back in a few days.

    Amazing how you can say this 100 times and people don't understand it. This is an advertising network, not a SEO tool.
     
    fryman, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  5. t2dman

    t2dman Peon

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    #65
    The co-op has been treated as an seo tool in the past, and still is for a large part and for many members.

    It has been able to be used to get top rankings as you describe fryman, but there has been a decreasing return of late.
     
    t2dman, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  6. fryman

    fryman Kiss my rep

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    #66
    I would like to hear from someone that got a top ranking at Google thanks to the Coop.

    Sure, you can get a nice rank at MSN if you are lucky and have enough weight... pitty not even my grandmother uses MSN.

    I have a site that is top 5 at Google, competing against several million other sites. How did I get there? With hundreds of hours stuck in front of my computer, trading links, optimizing my content, adding new pages. And after 13 months of very hard work, I finally got there. Poeple think that by putting up the coop code on their sites they can go scratch their balls while watching TV and by the next morning they will be #1 at Google. That's why they come here whining all the time "why are the links rotated" "why don't you make links static" and similar crap asked over and over and over...

    Once again... this is an ADVERTISING network.
     
    fryman, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  7. Cygnus

    Cygnus Cat Herder

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    #67
    One intelligent use of the COOP that I don't see used too much is the creation of ads specifically for enticing people to engage in some sort of link exchange with a site...if the goal of some is to use the COOP as a backlinks generator, try using it indirectly in that manner.
     
    Cygnus, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  8. NWelsh

    NWelsh Peon

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    #68
    I agree with Shawn about using the co-op as a advertising tool. But the truth is that the majority of us don't even place the links on our site where it would be effective as a good ad tool. Usually they are at the bottom, in small font and no one can see them or bother to decipher where they are.

    If you want to push this is as an advertising tool, that is fine. But create strict guidelines as to how the ads are placed, genre targeting and also provide better methods of ad integration into the sites (different widths, different colors etc. .. much like adsense). I am game for it. I don't mind clicks over SERP results.

    The coop has a astounding results on the SERPs and a lot of people signed up for that purpose. There is no denying that. Check out the query for "online advertising." The coop is #3 for a 187-million results term.
     
    NWelsh, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  9. NWelsh

    NWelsh Peon

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    #69
    About click-throughs. I have about 18k weight pointed to one site using 10 different terms. I have yet to see a click through from the co-op site. The only way I know this is because my site is very low traffic and for the last 3-4 days only my IP address shows up in the logs.
     
    NWelsh, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  10. t2dman

    t2dman Peon

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    #70
    Fryman

    I have had a page on a new domain 'A' go up to 4th for a competitive phrase (thanks to the co-op) when a page optimised on an authority site 'b' has been around 30th with no additional links. So the co-op has not only pushed site 'a' out of potential sandbox (some other pages on the site are sandbox type issue), but has pushed from the 30th I have been able to achieve on site 'b' to the 4th for this site 'a'. The term has now dropped to around 18th despite me adding a number of PR5+ links from other sites, plus co-op weight of around 80,000. I am concerned about the drop, and I want to get back up there. The rankings have been consistantly dropping over the weeks.

    I have other terms where I have achieved 30th out of 10.9million on my own efforts, then add a small amount of co-op and get consistantly 10th.

    Another 2 terms that I was around 30th for out of 46million and 30million for, I have been able to get in the top 10 for both.

    Where I have added weight of only several thousand to the above, I have not seen any drop - probably because the site/pages has already been very powerful.

    Google has specifically said/Shawn has reiterated/I have my above example - of where the best explaination of the drop has been that the co-op has been less effective than it first was.

    Shawn has said he will not change/the co-op is now being touted as more towards advertising since the people paying close attention are seeing some loss of effectiveness - more people need to know - thats fine by me. I am just disappointed.

    Since the only change really needed is for the links to be permanent, I am more than happy to move to a place where the method is virtually the same as the co-op.
     
    t2dman, Apr 17, 2005 IP
  11. jeremymgp

    jeremymgp Active Member

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    #71
    Hi,

    I signed up with the Coop about 2-3 weeks ago and wanted to share some thoughts as I've just removed it from my sites.

    Firstly, it now seems clear that while the Coop may have a minor legitimate function as an advertising network, it is in the webmaster's interest to accept that for the large majority of users it is first and foremost a method of falsely manipulating the search engines.

    Secondly, Google's recent patent application on March 31st, 2005 illustrates an undeniable campaign against artificial linking. Repetitive link text over multiple IPs, unnaturally rapid link growth, "link churn" and so on are all easily discernable from authentic links beyond the webmaster's control, and Google's algorithms are now systematically taking this into account. There are also simply too many incidents of the Coop generating fleeting growth in traffic, only to at best return to normal and at worst disappear completely, to ignore. Using the Coop on your site, particularly on larger sites with the potential to generate large numbers of artificial links, is a real risk.

    While no doubt human ingenuity will continue to provide solutions for and against search engine manipulation, it's now truer than ever that link development efforts are best spent in acquiring one-way links from relevant websites. Or from a user and search engine point of view, suggesting your site to other sites based on their needs and users, not your own. Webmaster mentality has been trained over the past few years to equate reciprocal links with website promotion - Google seems intent on re-educating us and we'd do well to follow suit.

    In sum the Coop provides a limited way to artificially inflate rankings in Yahoo and MSN, although this also seems to be on the decline, and overall the risk to webmasters of detrimental effects is significant and growing. Two observations stand out:
    1. The Coop embodies the very signs of artificial linking which Google is now using to devalue sites.
    2. The Coop is primarily a means to artificially inflate search engine rankings rather than an advertising network per se.

    Folks might also be interested in this article analyzing Google's recent patent:
    http://www.wwwcoder.com/main/parentid/285/site/5033/266/default.aspx

    Replies from all and sundry are welcomed, especially sundry :)

    Best Regards,

    Jeremy
     
    jeremymgp, May 13, 2005 IP
  12. Gede

    Gede Peon

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    #72
    It all depends, I think, on the quality of sites in the network. For now there are some shitty ones, just boosted with no intention but to make money on ads, they degrade the network, and may kill it one day. A certain moneytransfer site is an example. Maybe there should be human editing thing, so only "real" sites are allowed in. Theming would be a pro.

    http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

    Advertising, link buying / selling, link exchanges, they will not dissappear, and they will continue to be a part of everyday life and will continue to have impact on SERP's. The SE's will be smarter and smarter in detecting link fraud however, so they will determine the rules for this.

    I believe that the coop still has a chance, if it tries to improve on the quality, and doesn't missuse the current "holes" in SE technology. Organic is the keyword.

    If it will not, DP may one day be greyed out because its facilitating "fraud". Simply because it is possible, doesn't mean your should do it.

    I just became a member, and look in amazement on the links on my site.

    Let's see what happens.
     
    Gede, May 13, 2005 IP
  13. Perrow

    Perrow Well-Known Member

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    #73
    As I understand it the G patent says that non static links will be devalued. That is not the same as to say G will remove/punish a site if it has non static links on/pointing to the page.

    Think for a second if you in your right mind can hear G, the premiere ad seller, say "we will punish your site if you are using ads in any way"?

    Don't think that will happen any time soon :)
     
    Perrow, May 14, 2005 IP
  14. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #74
    1. The patent application illustrates that Google has applied for a patent, nothing more.

    2. There is zero evidence to support the claim that Google penalizes reciprocal links or that it will ever do so, and there are very good reasons to presume that this will in fact never happen. On the other hand, if you tried to make a case for relevant linking, I wouldn't argue with you.

    Gede, the ads you see on your site are not necessarily sites that themselves are "in" the Coop Ad Network. Members are free to include ads to other sites, as long as they don't violate the terms of the Coop re: content. The quality of sites in accepted ads isn't a factor, as yet, as far as I know... just the content.
     
    minstrel, May 14, 2005 IP
  15. Gede

    Gede Peon

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    #75
    Google penalizes pages/directories on sites that recieve links, if they are out of the "ordinary", and Google penalizes pages/directories on sites if their outbound links are out of the "ordinary". They don't transfer any link weight besides within the typical directory of that domain. I think this an automated process. Yes I have samples, phpBB is one, and one of my sites too. It doesn't however, seem to influence the value from the links to that particular domain.

    I knew that. But quality judgement would increase the value of the coop, and increase the credibility and thus decrease the risk of being stamped as a spammers network with a certain death. (And the workload on a free service...)
     
    Gede, May 14, 2005 IP
  16. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #76
    In certain cases, perhaps, but show me examples of where rotating links or reciprocal links are included... I mean now, in the real world, not in a hypothetical future surmised on the basis of a paper or patent application.

    I don't believe it... alhough again, it may depend on how you are defining "out of the ordinary"...

    But (1) every time I see a claim of a phpBB page/site used as an example, I am dubious, because so many of the phpBB forums I've seen are NOT optimized or even spider friendly... indeed many of them are downright spider-hostile, depending on which MODs have been installed. The bots mod (in beta) is a glaring example -- esigned as an SEO mod, what it did instead was show Google an error page, which I discovered because this showed up in a Google alert for a page added as a backlink. (2) Page Rank doesn't accrue to a site or domain but to an individual page.

    I'd agree with this... but:

    I'd also agree with this, which is the stumbling block. It's not just a question of increasing the workload for initial acceptance but also, people being people, you'd need a monitoring system to ensure the page in the ad didn't subsequently change or contain a redirect, etc., etc.
     
    minstrel, May 14, 2005 IP
  17. Googles76

    Googles76 Peon

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    #77
    Now these are truly golden words! I check my backlinks on MSN cache quite often just to see what kind of sites my ads appear on. There is maybe 1 site out of every 100 that places the co-op ads in a useful position. All other sites are as described by NWelsh. There is no denying a lot of people join the co-op for the benefit of SERPs (I did this myself, I have nothing to hide) and it does work for MSN and Yahoo.
     
    Googles76, May 14, 2005 IP
  18. Gede

    Gede Peon

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    #78
    For the Minstrel:

    I give up quoting, it will become to messy :p

    I dont say rotating links are a problem, the sudden increase of links, and the continuing number of excessive links pointing to a site are a problem.

    I don't mean phpBB forums, I mean the phpBB site, zillions of footer links, but not one link on their home page transfers page rank to another site. The "word" was penalty, but I think its an ordinary mechanism.

    Yours truly has 15.400 google links and 68.000 yahoo links pointing to his site, and the pages within the root of my domain don't transfer pagerank, and the links on the pages in the root don't show up as backlinks for other sites. The pages in a sub directory do however, and those subdirectories do recieve pagerank from the root, and pass it through to other linked sites.


    And for Googles76:

    Yes !

    But for how long....

    P.S. Some people see a drop in ranking when they add their site(s) to the
    coop. I have an idea. Maybe the sudden increase of backlinks causes those new links to be sandboxed, but the "formula" to calculate the value of backlinks still takes the new links in account. Maybe this formula is logaritmic, so until the new links are out of the sandbox, the already current links are devalued.

    But hee, I drink !
     
    Gede, May 14, 2005 IP
  19. minstrel

    minstrel Illustrious Member

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    #79
    Goota run, but for a quick reply to part of your post, Gede...

    believe it or not, the forums at www.phpbb.com are a good example of NON-optimized forums :eek:
     
    minstrel, May 14, 2005 IP
  20. Gede

    Gede Peon

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    #80
    Well, they still have 11.100 pages in google... and that is low compared to the 631.000 of DP....

    So yes, they could use some optimizing :cool:

    But why should they...

    P.S. I did some optimizing of phpBB for a few of my forums, sample:

    www.bali-information.com/expat_forum/

    I have twice as much pages as phpBB indexed....
     
    Gede, May 14, 2005 IP