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ColdFusion vs other language

Discussion in 'Programming' started by ggggqqqqihc, May 6, 2008.

  1. robhustle

    robhustle Peon

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    #21
    ColdFusion developers can hardly even be called developers. The language does half of the work for you. What kind of skill is involved with that?

    With CF, you spend most of your time "making stuff". That's not what programmers are paid to do. If programmers were meant to be creative, they'd be web designers.

    Back in the day, us real programmers used COM and Corba and EJB's and app servers like Websphere and Weblogic. Ever heard of Rational Rose, you pansies? THAT takes skill. NOTHING worked.

    You really had to bust your ass to get something functional. Weeks and Months of planning. Months and Years of development. Years and Years of support.

    And that's another reason ColdFusion sucks. If you use CF to develop, you can kiss your profitability goodbye. Using billable hours as a metric, ColdFusion is far inferior to other languages. If you can do something in 400 hours, why would you ever want to do it in 200? YOU JUST LOST HALF YOUR BILLABLE HOURS, GENIUS! 2x the hours = 2x the profit. DO THE MATH.

    And then there's support.

    If stuff just works, how in the world are you going to sell the support contract? Every time the support line rings, thats cash money. Ever notice how much the CF line rings vs. the .NET line? Exaaaaaactly.

    And then there's the people.

    ColdFusion programmers are a bunch of idealistic smart asses who fixate on vacuous concepts like 'creativity', 'efficiency' and 'elegance'. In reality, they just are afraid of getting real jobs and doing real work. They telecommute as much as possible, re-use as much code as they can (cuz they are too lazy to write new stuff), and spend time on internet forums helping complete strangers for free.

    These are not the kind of people you want to be associating with if you want to call yourself a 'real programmer'.

    Not to mention, ColdFusion is a dead language. Everyone knows it has no future. After all, people have been saying that SINCE VERSION 3! We're on version 8 now.

    To summarize, no I'm not being sarcastic.

    I have clearly demonstrated why ColdFusion sucks, and I trust that now that I have laid out the evidence, everyone will see why.

    QED
     
    robhustle, Nov 8, 2008 IP
  2. gavy

    gavy Peon

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    #22
    Can't Say Enough For This Guy "robhustle"
     
    gavy, Nov 9, 2008 IP
  3. gavy

    gavy Peon

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    #23
    Which Language U Like Robhustle, I Will Tell What Is Coldfusion And What That Other Language Sucks?
     
    gavy, Nov 9, 2008 IP
  4. gavy

    gavy Peon

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    #24
    When i read posts like that... i tend to respond like this.

    1) If i have a language that can cut my time to deliver; it will profit my client and therefore bring me more business with them. Business is a two way street; its not just about your profitability.

    2) Time to maintain; (remember that an applications lifesylcle is 95% maintenance) ColdFusion allows you to hire junior developers that can maintain the application that a senior developed. This allows you to pay less to your workforce and profit more since the billable time is still the same to the client. But since it's done in half (or in some cases 3 times less) the time; the client is able to profit more and have a better ROI on their investment.

    Developer (progammers) or whatever you call them; are about delivering an application that works and that will benefit their clients.

    it's not about doing it in the most complicated way to charge the client more.. that is called bad business practices and that is why you can't ever get to the true platform that allows you to compete with large development shops.

    Bashing a language because it does more for you; is plain ignorant and shows that you have no business sense whatsoever. I've used every language possible... and I can honeslty say that doing things in ColdFusion allows me to move from project to project quicker; therefore giving me a higher client base; more profitable books and the ability to support bigger and better applications in less time.

    Go learn something about business; then come and tell me what your new opinion is. Cutting your time in half is not losing 50% of your profit; it's increasing your profits by 28%. Since you can begin a new project and still charge fees to support the old one.

    A little better business understanding will go a long way; no matter what language you still want to use!

    (Feel free to respond with that wherever you read this post).. and yes you can use my name, email and whatever else you need to get your point accross to them! Smile

    By Pablo Varando
     
    gavy, Nov 9, 2008 IP
  5. robhustle

    robhustle Peon

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    #25
    It takes the fun out of things when you have to explain your jokes
     
    robhustle, Nov 10, 2008 IP
  6. gavy

    gavy Peon

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    #26
    Do you consider it a JOKE

    well anyways

    Some JOKES are not hilarious :D , rather they are serious

    So JOKE could be a JOKE When Some People laughs, It Only You Who's Laughing at least I say

    And Who Laugh Alone is called as Fool

    Cheers :D
     
    gavy, Nov 10, 2008 IP
  7. robhustle

    robhustle Peon

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    #27
    Gavy, It Obviously Joke. Some Joke ARE Hilarious. Me think this joke are hilarious. It hilarious because you no get it. That okay.

    Me Like ColdFusion. Me support coldfusion, very long time. Me used to speak at Allaire conferences and me was original beta tester at Macromedia for UltraDev. Me write articles for CF magazines and websites. Me not post in Coldfusion forum if me no like it.

    I understand now that me joke too - how you say - subtle for you. You no see that me arguments were stupid. You call Pablo Varando!!!! So, now me make easier to understand joke by typing in very funny way.

    Is better, yes? YES!!!!

    Is me fool? Me is rolling on the floor laughing all by myself right now, so me say YES!!!
     
    robhustle, Nov 11, 2008 IP
  8. gavy

    gavy Peon

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    #28
    Well No pont to caarry this conversation along?

    Let's Close this topic.

    You will keep posting such articles and i will keep refusing.

    No fun of Continuing

    Let's Close Down

    Cheers
     
    gavy, Nov 13, 2008 IP
  9. Aztral

    Aztral Well-Known Member

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    #29
    Personally I find machine language the best for doing web development. Once you know which CPU you're working with you're off-to-the races.

    Just open your file up in binary mode and start flipping 1s and 0s. And talk about fast...Wow!

    In fact my one major client (I've had them for like 10 years) is quite happy with the speed of their huge 20 page website.

    And talk about billable hours...jeez!
     
    Aztral, Jan 26, 2009 IP
  10. ComboAlex

    ComboAlex Peon

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    #30
    Yeah and I am Madonna. :D
     
    ComboAlex, Aug 11, 2009 IP
  11. ComboAlex

    ComboAlex Peon

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    #31
    Robhustle, I don't mean any disrespect to you, but you really crossed the line of good taste man. OK, someone's opinion is always nice to read, but there's no need to offend other people if they don't think your way.

    That's just sad sad man. I know many great developers that maybe don't use the low-level programming languages, but they are still great programmers, even if they haven't heard of other, maybe older and more mystic languages. I don't laugh at someone if they say they never heard of Turbo Pascal. And definitely I cannot say they aren't developers because of that. If a medical doctor doesn't know all that there is to know in medicine and he knows really everything about his own specialization, he is still a doctor, isn't he?

    You sound like very bitter, impatient and and non tolerant man. I've met many stubborn programmers in real life as you seem to be... and I know your kind. I really feel sorry for programmers such you are, because their bitterness and sadness keeps them closed in their small shell and they just cannot get out of it and be happy.

    Robhustle, there's no need to get crazy. Live and let live.

    I totally agree with everything that Gavy wrote. Good job man! :)
     
    ComboAlex, Aug 11, 2009 IP
  12. ComboAlex

    ComboAlex Peon

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    #32
    In amazement I read your posts again and I am realizing how much aggression comes from your posts. You must really be a sad sad person.
     
    ComboAlex, Aug 11, 2009 IP
  13. fusionwebdev

    fusionwebdev Peon

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    #33
    You can develop applications much faster as they have some very usefull functions which require hard coding in other languages
     
    fusionwebdev, Aug 24, 2009 IP
  14. FCM

    FCM Well-Known Member

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    #34
    Why should you use coldfusion? Thats like asking someone why do they breath. Because you have too it's that awesome. ColdFusion helps eliminate a lot of hassle and keeps getting better and better and better oh yeah and better each and every new release. It helps cut time and cost and is truely amazing.
     
    FCM, Aug 25, 2009 IP
  15. ComboAlex

    ComboAlex Peon

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    #35
    Tell it to the people in my "poor" country (Slovenia) where there is unfortunatelly almost noone that uses it. Tell it to the people that never tried CF and yet they still have so much to say against it. :confused: Tell it to the people that that prefer Ruby on Rails etc. :) I wish there would be more people using it here.
     
    ComboAlex, Aug 27, 2009 IP
  16. ComboAlex

    ComboAlex Peon

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    #36
    OK, I took the liberty to copy-paste from our University forum some very nice arguments why ColdFusion is good comparing to other languages such as RoR etc. Thank you Doug (the comments to the quotes are his)!

    This is true. CF Script does not natively have closures (though they CAN be added with a simple add-in). The looming question then: so? What can I not do in CF that I could do if I had them? Many languages do not have closures. Even Java, which is repeatedly referenced in this rebuttal, does not have true closures! Again: SO? :)

    The number of "bugs" in CF is so minimal that this is not even an argument. The immense beta testing program, and the swift bug reporting/fixing system in place makes this a non-issue. Besides that, editing ones own copy of source code is a VERY bad idea, as once you have your own "custom" version, you are no longer able to accept new official versions, updates, or patches without overwriting your own custom code. As an illustration of CF's stability and solidness, the total number of "hot fixes" put out for ColdFusion over the past TEN years has been at most 3 or 4...that's it, and they only covered minor peripheral issues that affected the minority of users. In a nutshell, having access to ColdFusion's source code is a mute point; it violates best practices and isn't needed. Besides that, if one is really that much of a zealot and MUST have source code in order to feel empowered, no problem; since CFML is not a proprietary language in and of itself, there are at least TWO other alternative CFML parsers besides Adobe's "ColdFusion Server" product that will execute CFML, AND are open source: Railo, and Open Blue Dragon. Railo is an open source CFML parser written in Java, Open Blue Dragon is an open source CFML parser written in .NET. Have at it, open source zealots!

    Incorrect, and completely false. Having programmed in BOTH JSP, CF, and RoR, I can tell you that CF takes FAR less work than JSP, and no more work than RoR. The ONLY reason why RoR might *appear* to take less work is because of the "box" that it forces you to develop in; with RoR, you are FORCED to code in a strictly implicit style... the Rails framework style. Rails is simply a framework for the Ruby language to use, nothing more; if you want to compare apples to apples then, you'd have to compare one of ColdFusion's implicit frameworks (such as ColdBox, or Fusebox 5.5) to RoR, in which case the CF framework would win hands down as far as ease of development.

    I just have to chuckle on this one. ColdFusion has been in the framework business for at least the past six years already, and I would say is far ahead of even some of the older languages such as .NET in this arena. Java has many frameworks (and tag libraries, I might add, which ColdFusion is) that have been developed over the years to help make Java development easier (writing less code to accomplish the same amount of work), such as Spring and Hibernate. These same frameworks, and MORE, have existed for CF for a long time now (MVC: Coldbox, Mach II, ModelGlue, PureMVC, Fusebox; IOC: Coldspring, Lightwire; ORM: Transfer, Reactor). Without the frameworks, CF already made programming far easier than it is with Java; but WITH the frameworks and the heavy OOP approach used with the CF frameworks, it's not even a fair match to compare CF with Java anymore. What would take fifty lines of code to do with Java you can do with ten lines in CF. So, I ask: who is the smarter person? The one who goes for the strictly typed, overly verbose language, or the one who goes for the dynamically typed, extremely expressive language? Who is smarter: the man who designs a system of pulleys and levers and ropes to move his chair across the room, or the one who simply picks it up and carries it to the other side? :)

    See previous comments. Only RoR comes even close to matching Coldfusion's expressiveness, and that is ONLY because it is an IMPLICIT FRAMEWORK for Ruby! Comparing CF to the other languages mentioned, CF is more expressive.

    So he does admit that also CF is a modern language. And, as he accurately observed, Java classes can be directly implemented within CF. Also tag libraries can be imported and used within their own namespaces. As far as transparent, it couldn't get any more transparent than importing a tag library and then utilizing it by referencing that library's name space

    And one last thing... it is important to remind everyone, that we aren't trying to say that CF is "the best" language; just that it is definitely worth considering using, for many good reasons. And that it ranks up there with all of the others in every category. One of the features that makes it better in some people's eyes (and worse in others) is the fact that it's dynamically typed nearly every other language is statically typed. This is a blessing or a curse, depending on which "religion" you subscribe to, but in any case, it is a feature of CF that makes this language very robust and flexible.
     
    ComboAlex, Sep 2, 2009 IP
  17. 3plains

    3plains Well-Known Member

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  18. BlueriverD

    BlueriverD Peon

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    #38
    Fact is Flex is going pretty mainstream and Adobe CLEARLY intends to integrate Coldfusion tightly with it (without forcing people to use it). Time to dust off the dust and remove the head stones. Coldfusion is nowhere near to being dead.
     
    BlueriverD, Nov 2, 2009 IP
  19. FCM

    FCM Well-Known Member

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    #39
    A lot of valid points have been made both for and against the use of ColdFusion

    The only indefinite answer that can be provided is yours. For the simple fact that this is entirely opinion based

    But I will say that it is a fact that you can cut time in developing your applications, and for the gentlemen who sad that ColdFusion is expensive I beg to differ, CF has many host that provided you with hosting for as little as 5$ USD. You can also develop with it for free.

    PHP is nice, Its my first language but saying that CF is not a language is like saying that water is not equal to H2O it is great, its simplictic which makes it great for anyone to use

    You can create Charts, PDFS, Presentations, Queries, and so much more on the fly with coldfusion.

    For the most part I believe that the majority of the people that are opposed to ColdFusion have never truly used it or have actually seen how truly powerful it really is.
     
    FCM, Nov 3, 2009 IP
  20. BlueriverD

    BlueriverD Peon

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    #40
    I'd agree with this. There is always some cool language that everyone suggests for everything. Its presently PHP and before it was Perl. For awhile everyone wanted to say Ruby on rails etc. Adobe is pushing forward with coldfusion in a big way. Its not going anywhere and its a real language for real developers. Not the majority and maybe never will be but thatst not what makes a languag viable.
     
    BlueriverD, Nov 10, 2009 IP