Clickbank's silent acknowledgement of tracking problems

I started a post little over a week ago that you can find here:
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=1654460

In this I described some problems I was having that I thought were related to Clickbank's tracking system. To recap, the vendor I've been promoting has a clickbank site setup that's a mirror of his regular site, and this site isn't indexed by search engines. Nearly all of the traffic that arrives at this CB site is sent by affiliate referrals. This is confirmed by his google analytics, which show "hop=nickname" in nearly all of the traffic.

Not long after I started promoting this vendor's products, he started getting sales that didn't show affiliate referrals. He knew something was wrong, because once again, all of the traffic to this site comes from hoplinks. He contacted me, suspecting I was the affiliate who wasn't being credited. We did some research, and compared stats, and determined that I was being credited for roughly 1 out of 4 of my referrals. In a less positive light, I was not being credited for 3 out of 4 sales.

This is further confirmed by the google analytics, which show my hoplink as being the largest referrer, compared to this CB sales reports, which show a very small number of sales being credited to me, and a noticeably large number of sales without affiliate referrals.

For some reason I wasn't getting credit for my referrals, and this seemed to only be happening to me. In my last post
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=1654460
I was trying to figure out if this could be the result of something I was doing at my website. I've asked the question here, and at a few other forums, and haven't gotten as much as a crazy theory as to how this could be the result of anything I'm doing.

So, I sent a trouble ticket to Clickbank, detailing this problem, and indicated that I have evidence showing there are tracking problems. I gave the URLs of pages at my site, with my hoplinks, so that CB could evaluate them. I got back what I expected: a canned response with instructions for making a hoplink. Not indicating that my hoplinks were in any wrong; basically just ignoring the evidence I was providing suggesting that there are tracking problems.

In my final email to Clickbank I offered the person I was talking to access to the google analytics, which would provide him with undeniable evidence that there are tracking problems. I haven't heard back from him since.

I consider this Clickbank's acknowledgement of tracking problems. I made an argument to them that was based on evidence. I gave them the opportunity to review all of the evidence I've used to make my argument. They could use this evidence to either confirm that there are tracking problems, or determine what else might be the cause of this (i.e., commission theft, or maybe something at the vendor's site). Instead, they've chosen to do nothing.

This is the equivalent refusing a breath test when you're suspected of driving under the influence. It's an admission. It really is their acknowledgement that there are tracking problems. They have all the evidence they need to either confirm or deny. It would be in their best interest to deny, if they could. The fact that they choose not to makes it obvious that they can't.

So, if you've suspected tracking problems at Clickbank, I'd say you're probably right. And most likely, your case seemed isolated... like it was happening only to you. That's been my experience too. It might suggest that the problem lies in some deep part of the system... just a guess as to why it seems to happen to isolated affiliates. All we can do is guess, since the only people who can determine for sure won't look into this.

I think Clickbank is a great organization! I can imagine some of the challenges they're up against in keeping a system like theirs running. There are bound to be tracking problems from time to time; that's inevitable, and completely understandable.

I could understand the tracking problems, and I'm not here writing today because of tracking problems. I'm writing because of the way they've treated me, which is EPN all over again to me. I only ask that they take me seriously, and be honest with me.

They have an opportunity now to confirm or deny my argument that there are tracking problems. I'll keep you updated as to what they choose to do.

 

Are you sure you have your hoplink set-up correctly? (joke)

I understand what you're saying this is probably highly frustrating for you especially if you are using ppc. Just on a side conspiracy theory, do you trust the vendor? And are you sure that he is not doing anything that would cause this? In the grand scheme of things I would trust clickbank over the word of a vendor...

but if you have already covered all of this (which I think you have) then I am stumped and keep us updated as their tracking problems affect us all

 

I didn't quite understand something..

To be honest I've never heard of such incidences before, however everything's possible.

What you're saying is basically that the vendor is getting the sales, apparently under no clickbank affiliate. (which is weird/unusual)

"He contacted me, suspecting I was the affiliate who wasn't being credited. We did some research, and compared stats, and determined that I was being credited for roughly 1 out of 4 of my referrals. In a less positive light, I was not being credited for 3 out of 4 sales."

(They're called sales not refferals).

Mate, if clickbank can't resolve this issue why don't you just create another account and see how things change. You're loosing some money and I'm afraid you soon become a lot more frustrated, despite your efforts.

The sad thing is that no one is really able to demonstrate that the sales made under no affiliate ID are yours. Am I right? What if they're mine? (kidding)

What if those sales (say 100 sales) are made by 10 or more affiliates?

Get a new clickbank account, that's the best options you have, at least for now.

Al.

 

Your other thread says you were making a sale every few days.. With this low volume, I don't think there is enough data for you to prove your claim. The Market can swing like 60% (or more) either way any given day. Big vendors can see 200 sales 1 day, then 22 sales the next day. Even with the same traffic stats.. You would really need a lot of direct and undisputed evidence to convince Clickbank to take something like this seriously.

 

There was quite a few times when I e-mailed CB and they didn't reply back.
Their support is not the best. It doesn't mean that they acknowledged that there are problems.

I agree with floodrod.
I've personally had up to 70 sales difference on a day to day basis. Meaning, I got XXX amount of sales one day, and the next day I got 70 less sales. Huge fluctuations do seem to happen. There are so many factors that play a role in this.

I've had the same occurence as the OP when I was starting out. Promoting products as an affiliate, I had 2-3 sales per day constantly for a couple of months, and then it suddenly stopped and I had a 1-2 sales per week. Same traffic, same hops, same everything. This has happened several times. What works one day might stop working the next day.

What is important here is, not to worry about too much, instead of looking for a person to blame, step your game up, and keep promoting. Instead of losing precious time trying to find who is to blame for this, pick a new product and start promoting.

 

.. . . ...This.

 

What NC Said.....

Once I stopped thinking about how CB was "scamming" me is when I really started to make money.

Get over it, and promote something

 

Their support system does suck really bad and I'm not sure if it's them ignoring the problem or what but it is frustrating when you send them an email and you get a generic copy and paste response back directing you to their FAQ or something.

I've had this happen to me a number of times so I just got their ass on the phone and settled it that way. Try to call them and talk to a real person and see what happens.

 

When you called them what exactly did you "handle" I am curious

 

There was a problem with my payment from them. They sent me less than what I was supposed to receive.

When I sent them the first email all they did was responded with a generic ass response directing me to their FAQ on how payments are handled or some shit. Needless to say, it didn't even remotely answer my question.

Their phone support staff has always been quite helpful with me though. Not sure why they can't translate that over to their email support system too.

I also find it weird that they don't list their phone number on their site. Or if they do, it's very hard to locate. I had to do a Google search to find it.

 

Simple. Because not many people call CB, so they have much more time to be helpful for you, as many people tend to email CB instead, so they would have a massive amount of emails to answers.

Just my 2 cents...

 

Well it reflects bad on them and being such a big company you would think they would try to do somethin about it....

I'm definitely not the only one that has had a bad experience with their email support. I've seen lots of threads where people say the same thing.

 

LOL>>>LOL>>>LOL This is like saying that your bank has'nt credited your last 3 paychecks and they're not going to ever credit them but you should keep doing business with them and keep depositing your checks...LOL LOL LOL

Give me some of that special Jm Jones Koolaid too while I'm at it!!!

 

No it's not. Not even remotely

 

Actually, that is kind of funny, just going along getting ripped off and not worrying about it. So much smarter to put your efforts toward a network that doesn't rip you.

 

Are you reading the thread? The guy is making 1 sale every few days and complaining about the tracking.. This guy presented no evidence except saying he and another person agree..

In order to preach a conspiracy theory, you have to present some sort of believable evidence. No one will take you seriously if you say "I have evidence but I am not going to show it".

 

I offered evidence to CB. I'm not going to post the vendor's sales reports and give everyone here access to his analytics. CB has everything they need to either confirm or deny, and they can be the judge of whether or not I have sufficient evidence.

Furthermore, as indicated by the title of my post, I'm not preaching a conspiracy theory. I'm stating that CB is choosing to ignore evidence indicating pretty serious tracking problems. For whatever reason I don't know, but by not looking at the evidence I'm providing them with, they're making a statement.

I'm not claiming I have evidence proving with 100% certainty that I'm the affiliate who's missing out. I do have evidence proving with 100% certainty that a significant number of sales aren't being tracked. Once again, the only traffic source is hoplinks.. and as many as 1 in 4 sales aren't showing affiliate referals. Is that sufficient evidence?

The things that suggest (not prove) that I'm the affiliate missing out are:
1. Blanks started showing up at the exact time I started promoting this vendor's products.
2. I send the most traffic to this vendor's site when I'm promoting his products, and make significantly fewer sales than others who send less traffic than me.
3. My traffic has very similar metrics to those of affiliates who are making sales, according to google analytics.
4. I make a highly disproportionate number of sales given the traffic I refer, compared to other affiliates.

Once again, all of this seems odd or fishy enough to warrant a closer look by Clickbank. They are the ones who can ultimately determine what's going on, if anything's going on. They're in a position to examine the evidence and either:
1. Confirm tracking problems
2. Deny problems
3. State that this isn't sufficient evidence

They've chosen not to do anything. It may be that they're busy, or maybe they're working on it, or maybe they're trying to save face, or maybe there really is something crooked going on (which I doubt). But by not addressing this, they leave it up to everyone to wonder what's really going on.

 

Oh, so what you're saying is that if I simply stop thinking about the fact that I'm not getting credit my for my sales, I'll start getting credit for my sales? And this worked for you?

I might suggest you start a product of your own where you can show others how to make this highly illogical methodolgy work for them. I'll be your first customer, and will proudly promote your products! And I'll make you lots of money, because if I'm not making as money as I'd like to promoting your product, I'll just stop thinking about it.

 

I tried this. I got a new account and experienced the same thing. And just to give you an idea of numbers here, this vendor may only get 6 or 7 sales a day on his CB site. This is far from a mainstream product; it appeals to only a very select group, but it just so happens that it's the same group that my site appeals to.

My ads aren't misleading, and aren't designed to really grab your attention and make you click, not exactly knowing the reason why. They say, "Here's a product that may interest you. Click here if you're interested."

On a typical day I'll send him 80 hops from my site (no PPC). I would expect a few of those to be bots. After getting my new account I went about 5 days (400 hops) and showed one sale. Compare that to the next highest affiliate who averages 60 hops per day and averages well over one sale per day.

The vendor just paid high dollar to a fairly well-known copy writer, and since then saw his conversion rate raise from under 2% to 3% on his main (non-CB) site. Granted, his main site may convert better, given that people are buying on his site and not being sent to CB. But that wouldn't account for my conversion rate of 0.25%.

And again, I'm seeing almost no order form impressions. In my last 5-day run I saw 1 order form impression, and 1 order. It'd be one thing if I was seeing the loss of conversion on the order form. But my loss of conversion comes from the fact that according to CB tracking, my referred traffic never makes it to the order form.

So you have a situation where on his main site, 1 in 30 visitors are purchasing. His CB site is a perfect mirror of his main site, aside from the fact that the order form is at CB. There's no reason that the same number of people wouldn't make it to the order form on each site. If 1/15 (wild guess) are making it to the order form on his main site, then 1/15 should make it to the order form on his CB site. But all along I've seen well less than 1/200 people making it to the order form, and in the last run, 1/400 people making it to the order form.

So tell me there isn't a tracking issue when 1 in 400 people make it to an order form on a site with a 3% conversion rate.

Anyway, you might have been the person before the suggested me selling the product myself? Whoever said that, I think that's the best advice I'd heard. I'm really thinking about doing that, now.

 

You're right to be concerned, and it's definitely something to keep an eye on. I appreciate you wanting to bring the possibility of a problem to everyone's attention so we could all be made aware. I think some of the other respondents here meant to suggest you not let it derail your whole program by taking up all your time, although they might have said so with a little more tact.

In any case, I would suggest continuing to monitor the situation for awhile, as that will give you a larger data set to evaluate and present as evidence, if necessary. It will also give ClickBank more time to respond if they choose; sometimes I've gotten responses to trouble tickets weeks after I submitted them and had long given up on hearing back from anyone. In the meantime, expand your efforts to other campaigns that don't suffer this discrepancy so you'll grow your business and make more money. If the situation hasn't improved in a month (after two more payment cycles), compile your additional evidence and try rattling ClickBank's cage again.

Best success,
Neil