http://erasefaith.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=12 I posted this on my religious discussion forums, but wanted to involve everyone here in the question. Here is what I posted over there: Christians always site that the bible is the ultimate moral authority and that without god there can be no morality. I find this silly and would like to support that with a few lines straight from the bible. Whenever Children get out of line we should beat them with a rod (proverbs 13:24, 20:30, and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (exodus 21:15, leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark 7:9-13, and Matthew 15:4-7) We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the sabbath, worshipping graven images, practicing sorcery, and a wide variety of other imaginary crimes. Is slavery moral? Why would GOD want us to enslave his own creations? Well it says we should right in the bible. As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your breathren the people of Israel you shall not rule, over one another, with harshness. (Leviticus 25:44-46) There is also a passage on the rules for selling your daughter into sexual slavery as well as a few dozen others that I will leave out for now.
Obviously if christians hold the highest prison rates, as well as divorce rates, this can't be true. (In the US)
i) By examining past and present cultures of different societies it's clear that humans do not universally share the same ideas of good and evil. ii) If different intelligent humans can honestly label the exact same act in the exact same circumstances as either good or evil, then these acts cannot be intrinsically good or evil. Or if they are indeed intrinsically good or evil, then the human intellect cannot determine which act is good and which act is evil. iii) Religious people believe that they have messages or signs from God/gods telling them what's good and what's evil. So just because something is against the biases and taboos of your culture/society, that does not make it evil.
the harder the better not everything is to be taken as literal...are you trying to have a serious discussion here or just trying to start some fires? sounds like you already have your mind made up, no offense.
So what is to be taken literal? Just whatever fits your agenda? Who says what's supposed to be literal and what's not? Fire.
I think it's sad and somewhat humorous that people try to say that Christianity isn't a legitimate religion or moral authority simply because they take verses from the Bible OUT OF CONTEXT as in this situation here. 1EightT- somebody was right by saying it looks as if you've made up your own mind. You don't truly want to learn about the Christian faith but just want to ridicule and insult it. Furthermore, Rub3X- who said that Christians have the highest divorce rate in the US? The United State's divorce rate is just over 50%, but where did you find that Christians hold the highest rate? 1EightT may be simply uninformed, and if that's the case, that's a sad sad situation.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? EDIT: It's a well known fact they hold highest prison and divorce rates. "11% of the adult population is currently divorced. bullet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime. bullet Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significently higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics." http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
you read the entire Bible in context, not pick random scriptures that sound barbaric and then contradict as you see fit. for instance, rod probably doesn't mean a steel metal rod check the Hebrew and get back to me it means discipline! plain and simple. spank them if necessary, but to let them run all over you is bad for you, but more importantly bad for them. you discipline because you love them and want them to live a long life. to not discipline them is selfish and ultimately detrimental to their life.
And god killing the whole world except for one family and some animals is also taken out of context? Well hot damn, my whole understanding of the bible is fundamentally flawed.
Those verses from Proverbs about a "rod" you have taken out of context. It's not a physical rod. It is written in many places "a rod for your back", meaning "rod of discipline". Read this: The word “rod†is translated from the Hebrew word she′vet. To the Hebrews, she′vet meant a stick or a staff, such as that used by a shepherd. In this context the rod of authority suggests loving guidance, not harsh brutality.—Psalm 23:4. She′vet is often used symbolically in the Bible, representing authority. (2 Samuel 7:14; Isaiah 14:5) When referring to parental authority, “the rod†does not refer exclusively to physical punishment. It encompasses all forms of discipline, which most often need not be physical. And when physical discipline is employed, it is usually because other methods have proved unsuccessful. Proverbs 22:15 says that foolishness is “tied up†(“anchored,†NJB; “deep-rooted,†The New English Bible) with the heart of the one receiving physical discipline. More than mere childish frivolity is involved. How Should Discipline Be Administered? In the Bible, discipline is consistently linked with love and mildness, not with anger and brutality. The skillful counselor should be “gentle toward all, . . . restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed.â€â€”2 Timothy 2:24, 25. Therefore, discipline is not an emotional outlet for the parent. Rather, it is a method of instruction. As such, it should teach an erring child. When administered in anger, physical discipline teaches the wrong lesson. It serves the need of the parent, not that of the child. Furthermore, effective discipline has boundaries. “I shall have to chastise you to the proper degree,†Jehovah says to his people at Jeremiah 46:28. This is especially vital to remember when administering physical discipline. Hitting or shaking an infant can lead to brain damage or even death. Going beyond the intended purpose of discipline—to correct and to teach—may lead to child abuse. Hope this clears up the misconception for you. Col Yeah. That's the way. Blame God like he does not care about us. He's been very patient with us. I mean, how long do you need to take to actually accept him. So far, it has been 6,500+ years. He's calling for you to recognise him all the time and you refuse to accept that he is real. Why would he want anyone in his new system of things that refuses to know him. Don't you think "that" attitude is just a tad ignorant and selfish? I mean, he did give you life didn't he? He is giving you a solution to mankind's problems. You reject that because it does not fit into your way of thinking?? And this is how you treat him. Boy oh Boy!!! Col
you might consider taking more than 12 seconds before you post and really think about what you write. your little comedic comeback is just a little overstated don't you think? it seems to me like you're just spouting off. I'd like to engage in a decent conversation but with responses like this why should I even bother?
Hey col, it's about time you showed up! Anyways fine, have a decent convo. But please tell me how god killing everyone on earth isn't completely barbaric.
How is it barbaric?? It's not like he's doing it for fun or for power. He is giving every one of us an opportunity to recognise him, accept him and worship him. He has done this for thousands of years. He even warns us of the consequences and has given us time to think about it, find out about it and do something about it. If we choose to go our own way then he has every right to make us "not exist", since he is the "creator" after all. He tells us of a "new system" where there will be "no evil", "no fear" and "no pain", let alone "no death". If you were to choose not to want this, then that's your choice. You are going to die anyway so what's the difference if you die from being hit by a bus, of old age or put to death by God? I'll tell you the difference. If you die in this system of things, you WILL have the opportunity to be resurrected in God's new system. If you die by God's hand, then you WILL have NO CHANCE of living in the new system. The Bible makes this very clear. It's all a matter of what your intentions are. How your heart feels about these things. There's no barbaric killing when it comes to God. It's all up to you and you alone. Col
Agreed. I also support Hitler killing 6 million+ to teach them to they were doing something wrong and needed to change their ways. Also this poses problems to your god is all powerful crap. If god is all powerful, than he can just make us do whatever he wants without killing us.