In another thread on America heading toward a depression, Corwin said something that has resonated to me for some reason, when he stated that certain industries have less jobs due to automating some of the things humans used to do. It got me to thinking. Capitalism strives for more profits, both through more total profit as well as a percentage. What would happen in the future if most all jobs below the upper management and executives is either automated or outsourced for the rest? The unemployment rate would be astronomical and many people would, at that point, be homeless and starving. While I like Capitalism the best, at what end does it go too far in maximizing profits at the expense of its workers and possibly consumers? Could this possible future lead to massive unemployment from workers just becoming obsolete either through actual work or through worthwhile wages or will it never occur?
This is interesting, this issues has been in debate for a long time.. Probably not in USA, but in socialist countries.. And I think it is just a socialist propaganda.. First of all, there are many factors involved in the automation, not just profit. Automation reduces the cost, thus it brings the end price down. If you think about it, plenty of stuffs got cheaper over the year. This is necessary to stand in the cut throat competition. So it is good for end consumer. Second, machines may replace human in one area but human are still required to build those machines. So automation generates jobs as well. Third, as the technology is getting better and advance, people are presented with more and more opportunities.. Think about it, 25 years ago technology wasn't so good, Computers were really expensive and there was no internet.. And people were doing many thing manually. Today, technology is better, almost everyone can afford a computer, internet is dirt cheap, machines are replacing manual labor, but people are making more money on internet than they would have made working on some assembly line. Capitalism is good for anyone, it encourages people to be responsible and earn their living. Here hard working, intelligent people flourish. Dumb, stupid, irresponsible and lazy people perish. Socialism is bad for everyone, it encourages people to be lazy and depend on welfare cheques. Here hard working intelligent people suffer. Dumb, stupid, irresponsible and lazy people get paid by tax money.
I agree with both our your points, but I was more leaning towards what Bushranger was saying. The more things can be automated though both robotics and computers with algorithmic programs, the less jobs that are available. I do agree that more people are making money via the internet, but not everyone can work on the internet. If they can automate every job in every company to replace everyone from standard employees, secretaries, and managers to save millions per year, won't that lead to a severe lack of job opportunities? I'm not stating this will ever happen, or even happen within our lifetimes. I'm just posing two questions. At what point, would automation and outsourcing lead to a severe lack of job opportunities? -and- At what point do CEO's and Boards choose to quit outsourcing and automating to help the economy through employment while still saving as much money as possible to maximize their profit margin?
You think that it is all about profit margin but it is not.. Stopping automation or outsourcing will increase the cost of manufacturing as manual labor is not only costlier but slower as well. A price that end consumer will have to pay, but when they have cheaper options from foreign manufacturers, do you think that they will prefer to buy same stuffs at higher price? I never believe that a man with skills, vision and determination will ever go without wok. Without job? may be but never without work..
As a kid, watching car manufacturers automate everything I hoped by the time I grew up machines would be doing ALL the work and most of us could sit back, doing what we loved to do instead of tied to a job they hated, whilst having some kind of dole for us all. That was a time when everyone was out to help each other. Now that i'm kinda old and society is all about me me me, I realise that was just a silly dream. Now you'll still have machines doing most of our work and it's stiff shit, i'm alright Jack as you're kicked to the gutter. FTR: I grew up, had a few jobs, didn't like them so employed myself and i'm alright Jack. Have 250 acres and working towards my own utopia, more like I imagined as a kid.
The first paragraph doesn't completely make sense. On the one hand you are stating it's not about the profit margin, yet you speak of outsourcing because it is cheaper. I agree that cheaper products mean more business as consumers will decide to buy their products; but what if all companies in say, the U.S. decide to outsource and automate to make every thing cheaper? That is the question you still haven't responded to. Where would the jobs for Americans be at that time? Forget the profit margin in and of itself. Where would the jobs be for the tens of millions of just Americans? -and- Would companies ever allow this to happen? These were the basic questions posed in my last post. That's what I'm trying to get at, not whether the profit margin is high or not. If we're all sitting back letting computers and machines do everything, how are we going to make money to buy the things that are being made and that we want? Where is our food coming from since we have no money to buy machines to do it, nor the money to pay for it online or at a market? While not having to work would be great, we'd still have to find a way to attain some sort of monetary resource to purchase with.
I'm a business guy. I operate several businesses. I and others invested in them years ago. Before that I was a "market maker" as a commercial real estate broker for about 2 decades in a major American market. That basically means I was making big $$ business deals with big shots in business. I simply give that background with regard to my comments on the question. I think today's capitalism in the US goes way too far. There is no better picture of this than the graphs in this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1 The graphs are pulled from the most authoritative data sources. They aren't unsubstantiated claims, or political commentary. They are a simple picture of how the US economy has operated over the long term and trends. Now I love business. I love the competition. I love making profits. Having said that in many ways I simply look at the graphs and its clear to me that capitalism in the US has gone too far. The wealthiest of the wealthy benefit and the middle class and poor get screwed. Money is moving out of regular people's pockets and into the pockets of the very few. Yet the political screaming of the day would have you think otherwise. Now as to automation. Its interesting, the US is either still the number #1 producer of goods through factories and mines or recently supplanted by China as #1. The US produces enormous volumes of goods from factories...although over the long term and recently the number of employees who actually work in manufacturing in the US continues to diminish. Every year. For years and years. And continuing. Yet our volume of production is enormous....and far outstrips all other nations except China (which has become the producer of cheap goods to the world--China specializes in cheap labor...at least these days.) Of note .....while shopping recently for inexpensive casual clothes and shoes I looked at every label of every piece of clothing and shoes. Everything was made overseas...mostly in Asia. Everything I saw. When I was a kid my father owned a little business that distributed various merchandise and we visited factories in North Carolina that produced those goods. All those factories are gone and all that merchandise is now made in Asia. All those jobs are gone from the US. The question of automation eliminating jobs is one that has haunted people long before today. Automation has been going on for a long time....and automation has been replacing humans for years. I find it amazing that as historians look at this and business prognosticators write about it...one side keeps bringing up that new jobs keep occurring.....and they do keep appearing. All that occurs while automation replaces jobs. Of note by 1970 the US labor force was about 83 million 1980 about 107 million 1990 about 126 million 2000 about 142 million currently about 150 million working During those decades factory jobs have dramatically left the US and automation has replaced endless jobs. Something////progress...keeps creating more jobs...even as automation eliminates a lot of jobs. Regardless, though....the way money flows within the US and who gets a hold of it and gets to keep it is a very different story...at least if you look at those graphs.
There's nothing wrong with capitalism, socialism is what's wrong and there's to much of it working alone side capitalism (which doesn't work). You have more people on the planet than resources, so you need a system that creates and manages access rights to consuming resources. Capitalism solves that problem. This is also an interesting blog post on employment: http://macro-man.blogspot.com/2012/01/tmm-asks-you-future-of-employment.html
I see what you're saying about the number of jobs, but think of it in these terms. If there are 1 billion people living in the United States one day, but automation and outsourcing has replaced 75% of the possible jobs out there, that still leaves 250 million, which is higher than it used to be on who is working. Total numbers, rather than proportion. While there were more jobs created, more people were actually out of work. I'm not advocating any political or social stance on this; I'm simply wondering what would happen if this were to occur. As to your last point, it goes with the fact that regardless of who's working the jobs, the amount of production remains high. In my example, this would simply mean as much, if not more money in the hands of the people owning and controlling the production, while less jobs for the consumers of said products. It's sort of a conundrum if you ask me. Obamanation basically finished what I was asking about not having money and who would buy the goods.
Reading all the posts here, it is so funny to see people so confused about something that has been already discussed. If you really want to learn what is happening then read Marx Capital. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ If you don´t want to read the pure mathematical reasoning and instead read more social oriented vesion then I suggest: Anti-During by Engles. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ The other funny observation in this thread is the fact that people who have never read Marx or Engels, are so afraid of Socialism without knowing what it is and just imagining that Socialism is what they have seen in Hollywood movies about old Soviet.
You can hardly learn anything from people like Bush or Newt Gingrich who are barely literate, so why not read people who knew what they are talking about?
According to Abomination Australia embraces socialism. If it is socialism I will take it any day. Great public health system, great welfare system, Great retirement system. Man, the workers get great holidays - 4 weeks a year, 3 months long service leave after 10 or 15 years and no guns. You go socialism!!!!
According to him the great thing about capitalism is that you have the FREEDOM to to die when you are sick for the lack of medicine, you are FREE to be homeless and unemployed without anyone stopping you.
I do. That's why I mostly don't read or reply to your posts! Sounds like you need to educate yourself a bit on Mr. Gingrich's academic past. According to me, you either have horrible reading comprehension or like to intentionally misquote. I pointed out that Australia props up the socialist elements of it's domestic policy with a strictly enforced immigration policy. This is true in every place that has functioning socialistic policies, like Norway. You have to make the interpretation when GWorld chimes in supporting such things. What he really means to say is that the US needs to expel all of it's illegal alien population (>12million people). To really model Australia and Norway, I suppose we would really need to get rid of the ethnic diversity as well.....
LOL. I think it is better that you do a search on his "academic" past, it is just a bad joke in the same league as Bush university degrees.
I didn´t say Bush didn´t graduate, I said he is not literate. The good thing about Academic world in USA is that if you have enough money you can buy any degree that you like.