So let it go. I won't cry and you won't change my mind how I see it. State can be corrupted but nation can't. You can have state without nation behind it. If you say for some state that is corrupted in my eyes it doesn't mean that entire nation that formed that state corrupted. Nation State What a statement... Milan Martić Who happen to have 40,000 in uniform... Uh...Oh... I didn't found the part where it says that he was Tudmans terrorist or that he was send by Tudman to commit terrorist act. Can you please find that quote for me? UDBA was Yugoslavian secret police, not Tito's private army. And as I can see you don't like Tito only because he was croat. But it doesn't change the fact that Yugoslavian secret police was murdering politicians that they didn't liked. Prates got life time sentence I see nothing but hate in your posts. That kind of hate is responsible for all what happened in Croatia, Bosnia and on Kosovo during '90.s. What I find amusing you keep asking me why we didn't wanted to live with people like you are in same country and you keep asking me that after all things you said about my nation. Do you mean that what you are saying I listen for the first time? I've already heard all those things when Milosevic came to power...
Yes, we agree: -and repeating will affirm we agree, a state isn't the same thing as a nation. Now, to the relevant question I put before you some time ago; regarding: and It seems, then, you agree with:
So in other words you agree with me that state is not same as a nation but yet you claim that state of Israel is a nation?!? How can state be a nation if those two are different things? It simply can't be both! If it is a nation than it isn't state. If it is a state than it isn't nation. It's like saying yeah, we agree, black and white is two different colors but black is white when I say so.
Iggy, I'm sorry, but this is very, very basic logic. By being a nation-state. Yes, it can. Such a thing is called a nation-state, a relatively modern entity in the history of humanity. Look: A state can exist without a nation (Holy Roman Empire, for one; the era of classic kingship in Europe, for another; and so on); A nation can exist without a state (from at least some Catalonian perspectives, for instance, Catalan peoples are a nation, without a state); Many entities exist as nation-states; that is, they are typically bounded by a geographical limit, with powers normally accorded to states, containing populations considering themselves "nations," by a host of criteria already discussed. This is elemental, hence my question to you: Why is Israel a state, not a nation, in your world? To broaden it out, is any country putatively called a nation-state a nation-state? Is the term an oxymoron, in your world?
Nations can form their nation states (and they do that) but it doesn't mean state=nation! Germany is a state but Germans are nation. I never heard about Israel nation but I've heard about Jews and Jewish nation and also Israelis. If USA is nation state are you American or USA? Nation state As I can see from this definition of nation state it doesn't say what you are claiming. Can you show me where does it says that nation state means that state is same thing as nation?
i know its hard for croats to read about stuff like this even though its a short text with plenty of nice info... (terrorist wife of terrorist busic) With HDZ in party the following year, she became the secretary for the Croatian Affairs office in San Francisco, and she moved to Zagreb and was employed in the Office of the President as Franjo Tudjman’s reliable colleague in 1995. She has had regular contacts with the CHC recently, who have been working on getting her husband released. and when Tudjman met with Bill Clinton, he pleaded for Busic to be transferred to the Republic of Croatia. During the Dayton negotiations, Tudjman, Granic and Susak met with an American team led by diplomat Warren Christopher. Tudjman again sought Busic’s release, his terrorist wife now works for the croat government and im sure busic will get a nice job too ...be sure to let me know if you still cant find it ill post it in big letters...and this is from a croat source so im sure its not biased... tell me why did precious mercy angel franjo ask for a terrorist to be released??? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM... yes croat titos secret police was murdering off political opponents...this is why franjo and alija kept the fuck quiet about croatian separatism and grew some balls when milosevic came to power... oh and IM SURE that UDBA was not Titos private police AHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA! you are so crazy... the violence started with the terrorist croats i gave you links how they hijacked an american plane and how they planted a bomb in the subway in the USA...its a great indicator of what franjo and the separatists were all about...its not my fault you are ashamed of your own history and choose to selectively remember events LOL... as for hate i dont hate anybody this is just you trying to have a point...hate is reserved only for the insecure and endangered and retarded...serbs are not insecure they have their OWN language and history...we dont make words up like croats LOL or make up fake pride and hollidays based on war crimes LOL...hate is for people who need to hate so that they can find justification for their actions...serbia was not involved in the war i know and you dont this is something you will have to accept...if you need justification for your greedy war and ethnic cleansing then im sure hating serbs will help you a lot with the fake pride...
Again, I don't see where does it say that Tudman sent him to commit terrorist act. Can you quote that once again? I already told you: learn history if you want to discuss things: source Doesn't look like Franjo was quiet during Titos rule. And,other than namecalling and silly claims can you provide any source for your claims? Anything at all? Nothing but hate coming out from your posts. I just need to quote all your posts in which you are referring to my nation and everyone can see only one thing: hate.
Iggy, as I have never said nation and state are the same thing, you'll have to try another tactic. I have said that a state containing individuals who believe themselves to belong to a nation are a nation-state. Such exists in Israel, as it exists in the United States, and virtually every modern country on Earth today. In other words, As "USA" stands for "United States of America," I am commonly called an American (with a nod to our other North America neighbors, Canadians). And, further serving the point, there is no "ethnicity" called "American" - to belong to the nation "American" cuts across ethnic boundaries, and includes a host of other variables such that I, not personally knowing the millions of other Americans who share this territorial unit, nevertheless share citizenship in the nation. This is the "imagined community" I have spoken of many times. To take only your other example: Germans are not a nation, but an ethnic group. When the first whispers of German unification took place in the first third of the nineteenth century, the question of grossdeutsch v. kleindeutsch, or a "pan Germanic" v. "small Germany" solution under Prussian hegemony to German unification. Today's Federal Republic of Germany contains ethnic Germans, but ethnic Germans exist in other countries as well - Austria, for example. The "nation" of Germany differs from the "nation" of Austria, therefore; and so on. Your logic, and the argument that emanates from it, are fatally flawed, Iggy.
So when I say Israel is it referring to state or to a nation if I know that there's nation behind that state which we cal Jews or Jewish? Nope, your is it's just that you won't admit it.
oh sure tudjman is going to admit in an open memo that he plans terror acts on the USA LOL you are really crazy...you are ever so conveniently avoiding the point at hand: why would president of peaceful peaceful croatia be asking for amnesty for a guy who hijacks planes and lays bombs in subways in the USA kinda like alquaida eh????? why would precious precious franjo employ people who strap on explosives and hiijack aeroplanes? i love how you see nothing wrong at all with anything any croat does its so amusing... NICE LINK AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! tudjman wrote a book on guerilla warfare??? a separatist/nationalist/terrorist supporter like franjo questions the number of serbs/jews murdered in jasenovac???? SOUNDS NON BIASED AHAHAHAAAAAAAAA! he was a separatist all along its in your own link LOL...he sounds like a FINE person to me i mean i know lots of people who write books on guerilla warfare and ask for convicted terrorists/plane hijackers/cop killers to be released AHAHAHAHAA!...tudjmans hands can never be dirty because of the iggysick hand wash LOL...its nice to live in iggysicks fantasy bubble...all blood just drops off and counts for nothing... youre just a desperate guy who needs to put words in other peoples mouths...like i would hesitate to say i hate croats if i really did? LOL what do you think im afraid to speak out my opinion or something? AHAHAHAHAAA! i dont hate you i already explained just like you explained "hoards"...fact is your politicians since WW2 to today are ethnic cleansers/nazis/separatists/terrorists/ethnic cleansers and everything that goes along with this and youre not mature/secure enough to admit it...and this is NOT the serbs fault that your politicians are like this its YOURS for electing them and being easy to stoke with meaningless nationalistic propaganda that you cant even defend with a plausible and intelligent explanation...GREED LOL...
Not that it will reach between your ears, Iggy, but for the umpteenth time, it is called a "nation-state," a concept that seems to elude your understanding, but is commonly understood by most folks. A nation-state, much like hundreds of others. Why yes, to be sure.
So can I comment white color and white color only? Or when I comment white color that means I am referring to black color too? It's just time wasting discussion and that's all. This discussion is not about it is wrong or right. There's lot of definition of terrorism and by each Busic was a terrorist. But you claimed that he was Tudmans terrorist but failed to prove that. Yet again, that link proves your claims to be false as usual. Nah,those aren't words of someone who hates. And it's another of your silly claims that you can't prove and have no connections with reality whatsoever and it's not worth discussing at all.
You can comment however you would like, or, in the alternative, you could make sense. Since we apparently seem to be into elementary things - simple colors, in this instance - let me provide a final couple of analogies. Quite simple, really; that said, not very hopeful it will reach, but, what the hell: Say you have a white bowl, and into it, you pour a black bean soup. White, and black, your apparent faves. The bowl is the container - it provides the structure, volume, thermal mass, etc., for the soup, which is black. It is distinct from the soup, an entirely different intrinsic nature and purpose; the soup has texture, taste, heat, and other defining characteristics. The beans in the soup to some extent maintain their own, atomized individuality, while yielding and melding some of their goodness to the other elements in the soup - likely, stock, onions, garlic, some leek, cilantro, some ancho, smoked hock, perhaps. The bowl is the state, and the soup is the nation. Thus, you have a bowl of soup, or, a nation-state. Another: In the world of Southwest American cooking, one of the specialties is the use of two kinds of soup, poured into a bowl; say, roast red pepper being one soup, and nopales, or prickly pear cactus soup. In the bowl, you have two, distinct colors, that maintain their integrity, taste, etc. A very pretty display, actually, if done properly, a sort of "bicameral" soup. This is the nation-state of Belgium, for one, Canada, for another. Consider it, or ignore it, as you have everything else, my friend. Yes, it is, apparently. PS: Can I get some props, peeps, for the soup thing? (OK, those I PM'ed, pathetic attention grab, I know....head lowers, does walk of shame...)
So, can I make comment about state if it is nation state and make commet about state only? Like saying: Bulgaria is corrupted. I am not upset about it at all. You can believe me on that.
I'm not upset either, Iggy, and you are free to comment however you would like, to include naming corrupt regimes. My only issue has been with your statement: Because, as I have said, there isn't a nation-state extant on earth that hasn't been "created." Israel is as much a nation-state as any other.
Ok, so I said what I ment to say in wrong way. English isn't my native speaking language so I simply can't explain something as good as you doing. The whole discussion was started about gauharjk's post "Israel is immoral" which I see as comment about state as defined in wiki and not comment about nation and when someone says Israel I see it like he is referring to state and state only because I never heard about Israel nation but I've heard about Jewish nation, Jews and Israelis and Israelites.
OK, I understand, Iggy. Lord knows you deserve a mountain of credit for attempting my hellatious language, much less debating in it. Apologies for allowing my arrogance to get the better of me as well. By the way, please say hello to Tajana Bundara for me. (Old Croat friend...).
It's ok, like I've said it just discussion in discussion forum and it's a bit diferent than talking with someone in person. I do post some things I would never said in person. Maybe it's just me. And where Tajana lives? I'm curently in Kutina, some 50 miles from our capitol Zagreb. If she lives somewhere near I could pass your hello to her.
A nation can't be genocidal, but some of it's leaders can. To say that a whole nation is genocidal implies that everyone in the nation is behind the actions, or has the power to stop it and doesn't do so. As far as I'm aware a genocidal nation has leaders with power and a populace with little to no power to voice their dissent.
proof: tudjman employs convicted terrorist wife (terrorist herself did hard time in the USA) in his office, then asks multiple times for cop killer/plane hijacker/bomb dropper busic to be released...SOUNDS LIKE AN AGENDA??? come on iggysick have at least some honor and admit the most obvious LOL...why didnt he ask for new incubators for your countrys newborn babies? why didnt he ask for help for your countires unemployed? OH RIGHT its because terrorist busic was more importaint to him AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA! its YOUR LINK...it proves: franjo wrote a book on guerilla warfate(terrorism) - POINT YOU IGNORE franjo tired to reduce the # of victims in jasenovac - POINT YOU IGNORE franjo obviously supports terrorism and cop killers- POINT YOU IGNORE franjo died before charges could be raised - POINT YOU IGNORE OH REALLY?? what point cant i prove??? 1) croat politicians were raging separatists/nazis before ww2 during ww2 and after 2) franjo is a terrorist supporter/writes books on terror/employs convicted terrorists 3) croats pick their own government 4) serbs do not pick croat government 5) croats killed waaaaaaaaaaay more serbs than you would like to admit pleas be sure to state what i cant prove LOL...