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Build Sites: Half the Time, Half the Cost

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by Jackson.Stat, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. #1
    Hello everyone,

    I am a part of a team who've been spending significant time and money in building a webdesign site that aims to make sites like ThemeForest obsolete. It is still in its beta phase which is why we have chosen to target WordPress consultants who have more of an idea of webdesign than 'the average joe'.

    I am writing to gauge the interest in the product. The idea, at least in its birth phase, is to perhaps offer cheap monthly subscription rates for WordPress designers and they can use our product to build all of their sites. As we are starting out we want strong developers to use the product, apart of this would involve us potentially doing free SEO or link building work for the sites you build. It makes you happy, and it makes us happy if sites created with us are ranking well.

    We still need to work out the pricing, we discussed maybe $100 a month for developers in its early stage and they can keep this subscription regardless of if the product blows up, in a grandfather style reward incentive for getting us our first clients. You'd be granted permission to build as many sites as you want after this subscription.
    SEMrush
    WHAT WE WANT TO KNOW, is what would be the kind of things you would be looking for to swap out of your current used sites like themeforest. Our claim is that building sites through us is quicker, more powerful, affordable, ran on quality servers and you've got a dedicated marketing firm behind it making sure you succeed so we can succeed.

    Thanks
     
    Jackson.Stat, Jul 24, 2018 IP
    SEMrush
  2. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #2
    I don't use SLEAZEBALL SCAMS like Themeforest or TemplateMonster as the templates presented on them universally are ignorant of how to use HTML properly, how to maintain separation of presentation from content, or even the most BASIC of accessibility concepts. As such the people selling on such services are nothing more than scam artists. At BEST they're ignorant and stupid, at worst they're snake oil peddlers.

    Though admittedly I hold that same opinion of turdpress itself or such idiocy as bootcrap -- given that out of the box it is PAINFULLY apparent that even the people who created such systems do not understand enough about HTML, CSS, or JavaScript to be building websites much less create a system by which others will do so.

    I would be interested in seeing a sample of what you're peddling, just to know if it is nothing more than another one of these ignorant half-witted incompetent SCAMS, or if standards like semantic markup, separation of presentation from content, progressive enhancement, legible colour contrasts, elastic semi-fluid responsive layout, and hosts of other norms are actually adhered to.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 24, 2018 IP
    mmerlinn and sarahk like this.
  3. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #3
    You most really hate WordPress, is it a pride thing that you're really good at programming or really think WordPress is not a professional way of doing business?
     
    macstux, Jul 25, 2018 IP
  4. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #4
    Turdpress is utterly unsuited to the creation of business websites -- it's a blog system for grandma and it is only through a mix of persistence beyond reason and ignorance that anything remotely resembling useful beyond that can be created.

    The results ALWAYS telling users with accessibility needs to go f*** themselves. Making site owners waste resources on hosting they shouldn't need in the first place. Hobbling traffic, hobbling SEO, and generally ignoring the most basic sane and rational practices of web development.

    The ONLY way you could be DELUDED into thinking that turdpress is worth a damn is not knowing enough about PHP, HTML, CSS, or JavaScript to even be building websites in the first damned place. This is easily proven by going to most ANY website built with it and doing a 'view source'. Hell, you can prove it on turdpress' own bloody huffing SITE!

    If you don't know what's wrong with this:

    
    <body id="wordpress-org" >
    <noscript><iframe src="https://www.googletagmanager.com/ns.html?id=GTM-P24PF4B" height="0" width="0" style="display:none;visibility:hidden"></iframe></noscript>
    <div id="wporg-header">
    	<div class="wrapper">
    		<button id="mobile-menu-button" aria-expanded="false"><span class="screen-reader-text">Toggle Menu</span></button>
    	<h1><a href="//wordpress.org">WordPress.org</a></h1>				<div id="head-search">
    		<form action="//wordpress.org/search/do-search.php" method="get">
    			<label for="global-search" class="screen-reader-text">Search WordPress.org for:</label>
    			<input id="global-search" class="text" name="search" type="text" value="" maxlength="150" placeholder="Search WordPress.org" />
    			<button type="submit" class="button"><span class="screen-reader-text">Submit</span></button>
    		</form>
    		</div>
    				<div style="clear:both"></div>
    		
    <ul id="wporg-header-menu">
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/showcase/' title='See some of the sites built on WordPress.'>Showcase</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/themes/' title='Find just the right look for your website.'>Themes</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/plugins/' title='Plugins can extend WordPress to do almost anything you can imagine.'>Plugins</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/mobile/' title='Take your website on the go!'>Mobile</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/support/' title='Forums, documentation, help.'>Support</a><ul class="nav-submenu"><li><a href='//wordpress.org/support/' title='Support and discussion forums.'>Forums</a></li><li><a href='//codex.wordpress.org/Main_Page' title='Documentation, tutorials, best practices.'>Documentation</a></li></ul><div class="uparrow"></div></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//make.wordpress.org/' title='Contribute your knowledge.'>Get Involved</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/about/' title='About the WordPress Organization, and where we&#039;re going.'>About</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/news/' title='Come here for the latest scoop.'>Blog</a></li>
    <li class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/hosting/' title='Find a home for your blog.'>Hosting</a></li>
    <li id="download" class="button download-button" class='menu-item'><a href='//wordpress.org/download/' title='Get it. Got it? Good.'>Get WordPress</a></li>
    </ul>
    		<div style="clear:both"></div>
    	</div>
    </div>
    
    <div id="download-mobile">
        <div class="wrapper">
            <span class="download-ready">Ready to get started?</span><a class="button download-button" href="//wordpress.org/download/" title="Get it. Got it? Good.">Download WordPress</a>
        </div>
    </div>
    
    <!-- feed is cached -->
    <div id="home-welcome">
    <header>
    	<h1>Meet WordPress</h1>
    	<p class="subheading">WordPress is open source software you can use to create a beautiful website, blog, or app.</p>
    </header>
    Code (markup):
    Do the world a favor, back the f*** away from the keyboard, and go take up something a bit less detail oriented like macramé. Endless pointless classes for NOTHING, div for NOTHING, absolute URI's for NOTHING, bandwidth wasting title attributes that actually make the page LESS accessible/usable for non-visual UA's, clearing DIV like it's still 2003, incomplete forms, BUTTON + JavaScript doing INPUT[type=checkbox] + CSS' job, ID on BODY, scripttardery inlined in the markup, iframe before you even have CONTENT?!? Multiple H1 with no SECTION... Shall I go on?

    It is painfully obvious to anyone who actually knows HTML that these asshats don't know the first damned thing about it!

    Just like the presence of single quotes means they're utterly unqualified to work with PHP either.

    It is a SCAM that people mindlessly parrot the praises of out of complete ignorance of what websites are, exist for, or how they SHOULD be built. ... and that's BEFORE we talk the plethora of security failings ranging from the mind-numbing asshattery of placing the SQL login information into global scope via DEFINE, to the 100% grade A herpa-freaking-derp of its multiple entry vectors. It won that pwnie back in '09 for a reason! MOST of the security flaws having been patched with duck tape and bailing wire which is why it's so easy for every two-bit mod/extension/plugin/whateverTheyreCalledThisWeek to re-open those holes.

    Which is GREAT when the keys to the kingdom are left hanging in plain sight behind the main gate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
    deathshadow, Jul 25, 2018 IP
  5. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #5
    Soooo it is a pride thing, technically their is nothing wrong about using Wordpress. The world is getting lazier and pretty much about everything. I mean come on theirs a self-stirring mug invented. This is where I see the Internet is coming too. WordPress has been out for a very long time but it is growing heavily. Even BIG3.com a celebrity basketball league website is made out of Wordpress. It is surely kicking programmers out of the way.
     
    macstux, Jul 25, 2018 IP
  6. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #6
    No it's an accessibility and long-term cost thing, where the results cost more to host, more to maintain, and tells users with accessibility needs to go f*** themselves.

    But of course in this age of renewed fascism, where people prefer "soldiers who don't get captured" and openly mock the handicapped, worrying about "accessibility" isn't hot and trendy enough for the bigots in charge of things.

    Hence the "f** the entire reason HTML was created" mentality of such mind-numbingly dumbass BULLSHIT as turdpress, bootcrap, react, vue, etc, etc.

    It plays to the credit mentality -- pay more later for something you can't afford now. NOT a recipe for success and probably why most startups these days are LUCKY to last out six months.

    Of course that means nothing to the sleazy snake oil peddlers who flip worthless websites crapped out in turdpress with off the shelf templates to nubes and rubes who don't know any better -- giving said practice all the business legitimacy of Amway or Mary Kay.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 25, 2018 IP
  7. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #7
    Pretty damn spot on, your writing is always on point!
     
    macstux, Jul 25, 2018 IP
  8. Jackson.Stat

    Jackson.Stat Peon

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    #8
    I don't think there's anything wrong with WordPress if used correctly. Sometimes people just want something easy to use and design. Like small business owners and people without a background in coding. I get that you're mad, probably because its replacing you as a programmer and taking your work (and your work I'm assuming is of a higher standard). But WordPress let's people without a plethora of ability to install plugins and create a site that fits their needs.

    EDIT: For the record, I code my own sites and whilst I'm not expert I can write in HTML,CSS,JS,Python,PHP etc. So I understand and agree with much of what you said
     
    Jackson.Stat, Jul 25, 2018 IP
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  9. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #9
    Which I've only seen ONCE, and doing so neutered the upgrade path due to the required under the hood changes, and I'm pretty sure it was a contributor to said developer going to an early grave.

    SOME of you may know of whom I'm referring.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 26, 2018 IP
  10. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #10
    So In programmers words, what is the correct way to use Wordpress?
     
    macstux, Jul 26, 2018 IP
  11. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #11
    Well, Dan only did the front end, but a short list of things to be corrected there include:

    Semantic markup with logical document structure

    Separation of presentation from content

    Neutering out the absolute URI's it insists on throwing at EVERYTHING

    Simplifying the directory structure to be less convoluted and not constantly point up-tree

    Getting rid of the endless pointless idiotic 'classes for nothing'

    Gutting out all the JavaScript that's doing CSS' job

    Gutting you all the JavaScript that serves no legitimate purpose

    Convincing it that there is NO legitimate reason to EVER use the <style> tag.

    Convincing it that if you use <style> regardless of if it is good practice or not, it's only valid inside <head>

    moving all scripts -- inline and external -- to right before </body>

    Reducing the number of pointless META that no legitimate user agent actually uses, as well as the social ones that are redundant to the existing globals (that will use the existting globals anyways as the fallback. See 90% of the opengraph crap). Naturally this means no Yoast. More so now that I've seen a few sites slapped down for abuse on Yandex and Baidu for what Yoast does!

    Reducing the markup CtCR (Code to Content Ratio) down to 3:1 or less instead of the 40:1 99% of templates seem to vomit up.

    Reducing the overall CSS or a more reasonable 48k or less in ONE file using actual media targets, instead of herpa-freaking-derping them at "all" and increasing the handshake count for no good reason. As opposed to the half a megabyte of developer ineptitude spanning 24+ files that's the norm amongst most of your "web designer" scam artists who prey on the ignorant over on ThemeForest or TemplateMonster.

    I could keep going. Even something as simple as their live demo which is for the most part the default template with one of those ignorant dumbass full page splash-page like images (that leave users going "where's the beef" like the little old lady in a Wendy's commercial) has NO excuse to be that much markup. They have 53k of HTML that's non-semantic gibberish filled with garbage that isn't even used on the page (like all that inlined SVG idiocy) to deliver 460 BYTES of plaintext and zero content images. NOT EVEN 5K OF HTML'S FLIPPING JOB!!!

    But of course vomiting up 12 times or more the HTML needed mated to a quarter megabyte of scripttardery on pages that don't even warrant the PRESENCE of scripting along with 12k of MINIFIED CSS filled with complete accessibility /FAIL/ like pixel metric font declarations is going to make it SO easy for that beginner to customize, modify, or JOE FORBID have to debug. :/

    Though admittedly, it's been a LOT better since Wordpress 4... dont' even get me STARTED about the halfwitted garbage version 2 used to barf up and have the unmitigated GALL to call a website. SADLY far, FAR too many turdpress "skinners" still have their heads wedged up WP 2.x's arse... where if you don't know what's wrong with code like this:

    
                   <div class="col-md-9 col-lg-7 col-sm-12 col-xs-12">
    
                        <nav id="site-navigation" class="main-navigation">
    
                            <ul id="mastmenu" class="primary-menu"><li id="menu-item-8" class="menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-has-children menu-item-8"><a href="#" class="no-one-page">Home</a>
    <ul class="sub-menu">
    	<li id="menu-item-327" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-327"><a href="http://demo.farost.net/leocrypto/home-page-light/" class="no-one-page">Home Page Light</a></li>
    
    Code (markup):
    You have ZERO damned business even running a website. I literally just opened up themeforest, opened the first theme listed, and copied. NOTHING screams developer ineptitude, incompetence, and ignorance like "when turdpress met bootcrap"
     
    deathshadow, Jul 26, 2018 IP
  12. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #12
    I thought you were going to tell me the correct ways to use Wordpress not the code.

    Sure looks like WP is winning and will surely take over.
     
    macstux, Jul 27, 2018 IP
  13. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #13
    Given that the code it outputs flips the bird at efficiency, usability, and accessibility -- AND we're in the HTML section of these forums -- what did you expect as a reply? "Use it as a blog for grandma and if you use it for your business you're shooting yourself in the foot?"

    Since that bad code basically tells large swaths of users to go f*** themselves. But Joe forbid anyone respond in kind...

    It bespeaks a level of ignorance and ineptitude on the part of people developing for it, making it NOTHING more than a scam targeting nubes and rubes who don't know any better.

    Its popularity just proves that P.T. Barnum was correct. This way to the great egress.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 27, 2018 IP
  14. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #14
    Because you don’t like the code it’s bad for business?

    No customer would ever look at the code
     
    macstux, Jul 27, 2018 IP
  15. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #15
    What part of "tells users with accessibility needs to go f*** themselves" are you failing to comprehend? Basically, you're SO ignorant of HTML that you cannot see any farther than the screen you're seated in front of, and are utterly unaware of the importance of semantic markup, graceful degradation, memory usage, leveraging caching models, and every other damned thing about web development that it's plain as day you're not even qualified to flap your yap on the topic?

    When that code makes it harder to make customizations, harder to maintain, harder to host, more expensive to host in the long term if you generate REAL traffic, has piss poor graceful degradation, broken non-visual navigation, and tells users on screen readers, braille readers, search engines, and every other non-screen media UA to suck it? That's NOT good for business.

    It just dupes people who don't know any better with the low entry bar. A bar set so low that the clients I end up having come to me usually have to be bailed out of continuing court fines and civil lawsuits because they were suckered in by this type of incompetence. That's bad for business too!

    Or are you also unfamiliar with things like the US ADA, UK EQA, etc, etc? Does the term "WCAG" ring any huffing bells?

    But sure, sleaze out your steaming pile of manure turdpress sites continuing to let yourself, and any clients be scammed into THINKING they have a useful website. Who cares about the millions of potential users you're telling to f*** off or how badly it hobbles you in the long term.

    Because of course, the underlying code doesn't matter, of course it doesn't. Keep telling yourself that pal.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 27, 2018 IP
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  16. malky66

    malky66 Illustrious Member

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    #16
    You unroll it and wipe your arse with it, that's all it's good for.
     
    malky66, Jul 28, 2018 IP
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  17. macstux

    macstux Active Member

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    #17
    Man I really wish I can keep you going but I am out of questions lol
     
    macstux, Jul 28, 2018 IP
  18. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #18
    Well sorry if I go a bit "off" on the topic, but I've spent the past five years working as an accessibility consultant where all these issues I'm mentioning have landed companies in court... so I'm PAINFULLY aware of how much these code issues create problems down the road.

    That and it gets annoying every time someone asks for help and you're looking at 50k of code doing 5k's job, and can't even find what they want changed much less where something is going wrong because of it. MORE SO when people just keep firing silver bullets at problems resulting in patch atop patch atop patch. The end result more often than not being like trying to treat a .50 cal bullet wound with bubblegum, duck tape, and bailing wire.

    I've just watched too many clients be screwed by these things. As such I'm NOT the friendliest person on the topic of turdpress or any of these hot and trendy "frameworks" that just screw site owner after site owner -- yet SOMEHOW get sold to people as having been 'easier' or 'faster' or 'less work'. Again though that's the credit mentality in action.

    Pay more later for something you can't afford now is NOT a sound business plan, even when it is the societal norm.
     
    deathshadow, Jul 28, 2018 IP
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  19. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #19
    That is an oxyMORON if I ever saw one, with the EMPHASIS on "MORON!"
     
    mmerlinn, Aug 11, 2018 IP