Initially, the CIA assisted Al-Qaeda with funds so in those terms someone may think of them as a CIA creation. But Al-Qaeda is very real. Bin Laden is not imaginary either, although I do not know if he is still alive. In addition, if there are fabricated/fake text or videos of Bin Laden, I think it is being done by Al-Qaeda and not the US government.
Do you mean specifically Al-Qaeda, or specifically the mujahadeen fighting the Afghan-SU war? I ask, because as I have said before (respecting an apparent belief in a CIA-Al-Qaeda marriage among some in Pakistan): Hence, it seems an odd assertion to me, to say Al-Qaeda/Bin-Laden is a CIA creation.
Yep, not the best hour in American foreign policy. The shortsightedness has come back to haunt us all too often.
I think you are right. source If you see it, you probably won't hear it, because you would die first.
Has anyone else not considered how convenient the PERFECT TIMING of this dodgy al-CIAda audio is from the boogeyman on the 5th aniversary of the illegal occupation of Iraq???
Technically, it's the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war. I hope to start a thread on it later. Re: American involvement with Al Queda, it's very sad. Al Queda were trained by the CIA. They were endorsed by the CIA. Apparently, some received training in the continental US from our military institutions. Obama's foreign policy advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski was a big Al Queda fan back in the late 70s and through the 80s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Initiation_of_the_insurgency http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011112/alterman Read this and creep yourself out... http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a1097chessboard#a1097chessboard and this http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=cambodia_662#cambodia_662
Guerilla, Brzezinski isn't "Obama's foreign policy advisor"; as I said in response to Bogart's same claim (Bogart indicated Brzezinski was Obama's "main adviser and foreign policy advisor"): I'd like to ask - in the spirit of our exchange, on the heels of your PM to me - that we keep the gloves up, and not go down the road we went down before. I don't think it's helpful to name Brzezinski "Obama's foreign policy advisor" when he isn't. I would again ask, in order to clarify the point of view: It is well known of U.S. support of the Mujahedeen durng the Soviet-Afghan war. But the mujhadeen are distinguished from Al-Qaeda, though Bin-Laden was a mujahadeen. Al-Qaeda has its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood, which precedes both the cold war and the CIA. Specifically, Guerilla or others with this view - is it your view that Al-Qaeda is a CIA program? Therefore, 9/11 is a U.S. government action, and all the tapes, movies of Bin-Laden, etc., a sham or plant of the CIA? AGS, it seems obvious to me why Bin-Laden would want to use the 5th anniversary of the Iraq war to make a pronouncement, much like his announcements on the anniversary of 9/11, and other events, where he, or whatever grieves him, has some saliency. Edited to add: Guerilla, I see that you were replying, but apparently no longer. In all seriousness, per your PM to me, and our exchange after, I'd like to move on from the past and engage in a fruitful discussion. If you have something, I'm listening.
My bad. I could have swore I read that at the Huffington Post, which is pretty Obama friendly, but may be wrong. Again, my bad for misrepresenting this guy as an advisor to Obama. Brzezinski is not Obama's advisor Honestly, I have no interest in mis-representing Obama. What is there is what concerns me, I don't need to make things up. I consider that whole act of making up crap really annoying and disingenuous. I think too much has been kept from the people and what has been put out there is enough to give anyone pause and concern. I think that the 9/11 Commission was blocked, held up and limited to the point that it requires a completely new investigation. I think the average person has not seen the bulk of the evidence for 9/11 truth, and if they did, they might also have questions. I don't believe or disbelieve the 9/11 truth perspective, but there are certainly a lot of questions that need answers. And they do need answers, because we've gone to war and lost a lot of blood and treasure, and disrupted millions of other lives over this event. As far as Bin Laden, I'm not scared of him. I don't know if he is real or not, but I refuse to live in fear. If I was in charge, I would do everything possible to capture him or prove his death. Close the circle so to speak. In my mind, given what the government has planned in the past (declassified) what the government has done in the past (declassified) and what the government has done in other countries (declassified), I don't doubt for one minute that Bin Laden could be contrived.
Brzezinski - no worries. They apparently talked at some point, but from all I've seen that was several months ago and I haven't seen anything supporting a notion that he is actually advising Obama, who does have the above foreign policy advisors on his advisory team. The problem I have with the notion that Bin-Laden is somehow an instrument of the U.S. government is, I guess, twofold. One, that the government would have to institute the death of thousands of its own citizens for some state-gain. Obviously, those who believe just that have their reasons. I simply don't accept the notion, but as all we have is information we have, probably an impossible thing to prove or disprove. It is on the line to me of assigning Pearl Harbor to Roosevelt, or Fort Sumter to Lincoln. Here, I would probably just rely on Occam's razor, or "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate", "plurality should not be posited without necessity"; it seems a massive construction to presume a state-conspiracy against its own people, when one has the people, ideological impetus, and organizational structure in events and periods of history that have nothing to do with the U.S. Two, for the reasons I earlier stated. Bin-Laden's Al-Qaeda finds its genesis in Sayid Qutb and the Muslim Brotherhood, which preceded the CIA, much less the cold war; and Qutb went to his death invoking hatred for the west. It is impossible, to me, that a man finding his direct genesis from a man and organization that precedes the CIA, and that was formed as a declared enemy to all things "western," can at the same time be a creation of the CIA or the U.S. government. At any rate - to the subject of the thread, not much to say. Bin Laden wants nothing but our end, so I'm not surprised. Murder over a cartoon is just as good as murder over anything else.
I think criminal neglect would be easy to prove. The 9/11 Commission alludes to the failures of agencies and individuals to prepare for, or respond to threat information prior to the attack. That's the issue. It doesn't have "nothing to do with". The problem is that history has been covered over. Much to our detriment. To each their own. I could spend hours listing nefarious things done by the government, against the law, against the people etc. But people will believe what they want to believe. What is no longer surprising to me, is how people will dismiss possibilities of, or make excuses for such behavior.
I think we're talking about different things. To clarify: I am talking about the Muslim Brotherhood and Sayyid Qutb, both of whom directly influenced Bin-Laden and his formation of Al-Qaeda. Basically, Qutb visited the U.S. and despised our culture, as well as U.S. policies. Seems our way of life just kind of rocked Qutb's world; from my read of him, he may have been just a pathologically sexually repressed guy who had a serious frustration problem: (Wiki, though I've read similar elsewhere). Bottom line, Qutb hated the west, hated all then-existing Islamic states as heretics, hated Jews, and all the rest. As I earlier said on the other thread, both Bin-Laden and Zawahiri regularly met with and were deeply influenced by Sayyid Qutb's brother, Mohammed, who preached Sayyid's line as a Professor to both. So, again: you have a guy that is impassioned in his hate of the United States, mounting volumes of written works detailing so; and dying with the hatred on his lips. This man directly influenced Bin-Laden and Zawahiri, who embraced his views, to include a worldwide Jihad, in toto. Given that, why would it be logical to dismiss this line of causation, and embrace a notion of a United States government-led conspiracy against its own citizens, particularly when we have voluminous evidence to support the former, and, at least from what I've seen, nothing to support the latter? Guerilla, you say you could spend hours showing crimes by the government against its people. Accepting this, did you have something to show establishing that Bin-Laden is a CIA-mole, as opposed to a Qutbist-Islamic Fundamentalist, in other words, what he is putatively held to be?
Osama worries about a cartoon. But not about the death of all those millions in Darfur. Sad priorities!!
It's always either an audio tape or a choppy video that will freeze EVERY time the audio mentions current events. Al Qaeda might be weakened, but they still have millions of dollars worth of weapons stockpiled around Afghanistan and Pakistan. Don't you think they could afford a decent camcorder? Also, since when do faulty camcorders have videos that freeze while the audio continues to record? It's such BS, and for some reason the media refuses to address this in a serious manner. They blow it off like it's another kooky 9/11 conspiracy theory. This is the one time when the conspiracy theory makes a whole lot more sense than what they are telling us. Is OBL, the man who was seriously ill and needed dialysis, still roaming around the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan, desperately trying to find a decent camcorder so he can get his message out to the masses? I think it's far more likely that he died within a year or so of 9/11 after spending his final months hiding in caves and barely escaping U.S. troops. He was quitely buried by al Qaeda, who are more powerful if people think OBL is alive. U.S. intelligence probably has the evidence that OBL is dead, but that information is likely highly-classified because American citizens' support for the war on terror would wane if they knew they could never capture the man behind 9/11.
If the the US government could prove Osama was dead I think they would proudly tell us. Why? Becauses it would show some actual improvement on the "WoT". Americans would give more support knowing he was dead than thinking he was alive and we were too inept to catch him. If he is dead and there is a conspiracy it would be his followers perpetuating it.