Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human as well as during the 1st century AD when Jesus Christ was on earth.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5006107163428312&id=41e234d54bc027892eeb2d650f101145


Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4987458401275150&id=c795afa47d1a82019d4c57fa22c514bd


In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

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3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

 

Question to you:

Why do you care so much what everyone else believes? Does someone's belief or non-belief in the trinity or hellfire affect your relationship with, or belief in, God?

 

@alter2ego: Please name one person from history not mentioned in the bible who personally knew Jesus, or even lived from 0ad to 33ad. Be sure and provide evidence.

 

Your Buybull is very clear that there is a very real, literal Hell that lasts for a literal eternity, where the wicked will be tormented in literal fire.

Are you saying that there isn't??

Matthew 13:41-42 says, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Are you saying that he won't?

Revelation 14:9-11 says "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Are you saying they will not.

Matthew 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Are you saying he will not do this?

Matthew 5:22 says, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Matthew 18:8-9 says, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Matthew 25:41 says, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jude 7 says, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Revelation 20:15 says, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16 says that the Rich Man suffered in a literal, fiery place of torment.

Are you saying that all the above is false?

 

You are admitting by your own free will that you are stupid, so what is a point of discussing anything with you?

 

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The intent of this post is to expand on the Trinity dogma.

The fabricated term "Godhead" goes hand in hand with the false trinity teaching that was officially introduced into Christianity by the ROMAN Catholic Church, beginning in 325 CE/AD at the Council of Nicaea. On that occasion, about 300 Catholic bishops met. At that time, Roman Emperor Constantine—a non-Christian who was not baptized until he lay dying—presided over the Nicaea Counsel and, as stated by the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Constantine himself presided, ACTIVELY GUIDING THE DISCUSSIONS, and PERSONALLY proposed... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, [that Christ was] 'of one substance with the Father.' "


Keep in mind that Jesus Christ died and returned to heavenly life in 33 C.E., and he never taught Trinity to his early disciples. This idea that would later evolve into the trinity did not officially become Roman Catholic dogma until 325 C.E. (almost 300 years after Jesus left the earthly scene). Also keep in mind that the ROMANS who executed Jesus—prior to them adopting Christianity as the state religion—had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). It was therefore a simple matter for the ROMAN Catholics to graft various pagan/false teachings into their corrupted version of Christianity. One such teaching became the "Christian" version of trinity or worship of a triune/triad (three-in-one) god.


Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


Although there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support this false teaching, the Trinity dogma has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries.

This idea of a triune god was nothing new. As I demonstrated in my opening post, among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD. In fact, there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth.

 

Nehemiah was / is a 'like-minded' member who liked using colours. Are you guys friends? I just can't get into a long post with assorted colors throughout. Don't ask me what you said. First rule of publishing is you can't beat black on white for maximum exposure. Half-blind people find it harder to distinguish or read coloured text therefore you miss out on a chunk of audience.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
In reality you asked two questions. Here is my response to the first: I care enough about fellow humans to see the need to seek out those searching for a correct understanding of what the Bible really teaches. Jesus instructed his true followers to go and teach people what he commanded. Jesus did not command the false teachings of Trinity and Hellfire.

"{19} GO therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, {20} TEACHING THEM to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Notice verse 19 is a command. It said "GO." It didn't say wait for people to come to you. Rather, it said go to the people and teach them. As a Christian follower of Jesus Christ, that's why I do this.

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
As noted by my response above, clearly it has no effect upon my belief in God whether or not a person believes in hellfire or the Trinity. That's like asking me if my relationship with God and my belief in God are affected by people who are atheist, Muslims, Buddhist, etc. Clearly, what others choose to believe is their choice and affects only themselves and those in close relationships with them. Since I am not in a close relationship with people online, what they choose to believe has no impact on my life.


Now, let me put some questions to you: If you had knowledge that you believe would save your neighbors from making a mistake, would you not feel compelled to share that knowledge with them simply out of concern? Or would you keep the info to yourself and then sit back and watch them go headlong into the path of error? What would be your move?

 

Why do you use different colors in your text instead of using the normal color like everyone else?

 

If your efforts were as likely to turn people away from your knowledge as toward it, would you continue? I think your efforts here are misguided and have the opposite effect of which you desire. I understand you want to share your knowledge and save others, but I think the result is to harden people's positions where they differ from you and to convert nobody to your way of thinking. I think you do a disservice to your stated goals by proselytizing in this manner.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
Rather than change the topic of this thread, perhaps you should start a thread of your own dealing with your opinion that people are wasting their time discussing religious doctrines on a Religion forum. In your thread, be sure and ask the atheists what they hope to gain by attacking God, the the Judeo-Christian Bible, and Christianity. Also inform them, as you informed me, that their "efforts here are misguided and have the opposite effect" because the result is to, as you put it: "harden people's positions where they differ." And don't forget to tell the atheists that they are doing "a disservice to your stated goals by proselytizing in this manner."

Let me know when you start up a thread on the subject so that I can go take a look at how the atheists respond when you tell them what you told me. Is that a deal?


In any event, I answered your previous questions: That I am following the instruction given by Jesus Christ to his followers. Whether or not people appreciate my efforts is irrelevant to the command given by Christ. Under divine inspiration from Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH, the prophet Ezekiel put forward the overriding principle, as quoted below.

"{18} When I say to someone wicked, 'You will positively die," and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. {19} But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul." (Ezekiel 3:18-19)

 

Pretty sure God didn't want you annoying the hell out of everyone around you. Usually I just ignore lame threads like the ones you start, but if I feel inclined to post something, I will do so whether or not you think it is on topic. Your opinion is of no concern to me.

I would seem that your desire to tell everyone else what to believe is an expression of your own lack of faith. I find it sad and rather pathetic.

 

Mikael to Alter2Ego:

Is it true that Jesus wore women's clothing ?

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
Where in the Judeo-Christian Bible does it say God doesn't want people discussing the Bible or religious doctrines? Your opinion, that you're "pretty sure" that God doesn't want me posting on this forum, is yours and yours alone. I quoted you the scripture from Ezekiel 3:18-19, which directly contradicts what you opine.

BTW: When you told me that you're "pretty sure God didn't want you annoying the hell out of everyone around you," which "everyone" are you referring to? Are you referring to the atheists who insist there is no God? Or are you referring to the Christians who believe God is split up into three separate persons (the Trinity) and that God brings people's souls back to life for the sole purpose of burning them in eternal hellfire--in Dante's fictional hell? Let me know.

FYI: I put questions for discussion at the end of my opening post and invited people to discuss the matter--using God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, as the authority. At no time did I say anything about what I believe because this is not about what I believe. It's about what the Bible actually says.

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
Isn't that exactly what you're doing: Telling me and everybody else what you believe about me? For instance, your belief is that I'm lacking in faith. You said you find it to be "sad and pathetic" that I would put up a topic for discussion dealing with two important Christian doctrines, and do so in a religion forum of all places. Where else would you suggest I should put up a topic dealing with Christian doctrines? Should I put it up at the forum where people advertise their computer services?

 

Who told you that the Judeo-Christian bible is the inspired Word of God ?

 

Well, except for the words right before "At no time did I say anything about what I believe". LOL Nice try, but this whole thing is about what you believe.

 

The Judeo-Christian Buybull of course.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BROWNTWN:
I'm wise to your game. You are attempting to drag this out by accusing me of promoting what I believe, which amounts to: "You believe it because you made it up." Never mind that I presented two different examples of pagan trinities in my OP that existed centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth. I guess I made that up too; huh? You completely avoid that evidence, because you figure if you keep me on the defensive, my expose on the Trinity and Dante's fictional hell will fall by the wayside. Dream on.

I have been at "Christian" websites where people behaved like you're behaving. At the "Christian" websites, all the moderators claimed they were Christians and they only permitted other Christians to join. Despite the fact that I am a Christian myself, the minute I started exposing Trinity and hellfire as false teachings by quoting scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible—which they all claim they respect and believe in—the Christian moderators banned me or else they locked my threads. They and the other Christian members could care less about what the Bible actually says. It's all about what they choose to believe. And it just so happens they choose to believe Catholic traditions that were passed down to the Protestants.

For the benefit of those reading this post, I will now begin presenting evidence that neither the Trinity nor hellfire are Bible teachings. I will start with the Trinity.


EVIDENCE #1 AGAINST THE PAGAN TRINITY:
The fabricated term "Godhead" goes hand in hand with the false trinity teaching that was officially introduced into Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church, beginning in 325 CE/AD at the Council of Nicaea. On that occasion, about 300 Catholic bishops met. At that time, Roman Emperor Constantine—a non-Christian who was not baptized until he lay dying—presided over the Nicaea Counsel and, as stated by the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Constantine himself presided, ACTIVELY GUIDING THE DISCUSSIONS, and PERSONALLY proposed... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, [that Christ was] 'of one substance with the Father.' "

Keep in mind that Jesus died and returned to heaven in 33 C.E. and this idea that would later evolve into the trinity did not officially become Roman Catholic dogma until 325 C.E. (almost 300 years after Jesus left the earthly scene). Also keep in mind that the ROMANS who executed Jesus—prior to adopting Christianity as the state religion—had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). It was therefore a simple matter for the ROMAN Catholics to graft various pagan/false teachings into their corrupted version of Christianity. One such teaching became the "Christian" version of trinity or worship of a triune/triad (three-in-one) god.

 

GWORLD-to-ALTER2EGO:
Do you have any good looking Jehovah witness girls in Spain that can give me a helping hand or even better a helping mouth?

 

Hey...he's not in Spain. He wouldn't get past the border! LOL!