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Befriending Jews and Christians, according to the Quran!

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by clade, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. #1
    Source: http://www.submission.org/christians/friends.html

    Many people who are not familiar with the Quran or did not make a good effort to study it are confused about the issue of befriending people from other religions. Many of them make grave judgment on this matter.

    Quran is a complete book that occasionally presents a law or commandment over several chapters or several verses in the same chapter and the practical part of this commandment can be achieved by understanding the whole issue as presented over all the verses and chapters and not by upholding only part of the Quran. God specifically warn us against doing just that, upholding part of the Quran while disregarding the rest.

    [2:85] ?. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this?..

    To understand the issue of befriending the Jews and Christians , we have to study all the concerned verses together in light of the whole Quran.

    I heard many people mention 5:51 with no referral to the rest of the verses that discuss this important issue.

    [5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

    Now, let's look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the Christians, or anyone not Muslim (Submitter) for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith;

    [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

    [60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

    Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let's go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

    [5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

    Thus, it is clear that this is a situation when there is a division and an overhanging conflict between the believers and the others. Otherwise, what would be the logic behind the statement. "We fear lest we may be defeated."

    In these situations those with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

    5:57 makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

    [5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

    God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. So, if we think we are righteous, and they are righteous, what could possibly be the problem between us, or obstacle for us to be friends?

    [7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

    [5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

    [5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

    [2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

    [3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

    They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

    [3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

    We learn, however, from the Quran that the Christians are closer to the believers (submitters-Muslims) than the Jews. This is just a statement of fact by God almighty, that we can still witness during our time. God is the best knower of the emotional structure of His creations and therefore was this statement of fact in 5:82. We can witness from the conflict in the Middle East for example , how very emotional the Jews get and how they react to conflicts with their friends, their enemies or even among themselves inside Israel.

    [5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

    This verse should not be used by any mean to negate the fact that among the Jews (and Christians) will be righteous people who can be good friends as explained in the above verses, they do not fight us in our religion or our homes. They can be our neighbors, colleagues, friends, co-workers...etc We will be good to them as they are good to us. We, all the righteous people of all religions ,can make the difference and make this world better by respecting each other, respecting the freedom of choice of each other, and remember that we all have the One and the same God.
    clade, Oct 10, 2009 IP
  2. clade

    clade Peon

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    #2
    I don't think God liked Atheists very much, tho.
    clade, Oct 10, 2009 IP
  3. Polite teen

    Polite teen Guest

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    #3
    What a nice balanced topic

    Thank you very much dear alwiser

    May Allah reward you a good reward.
    Polite teen, Oct 10, 2009 IP
  4. Reseg

    Reseg Peon

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    #4
    No better way to ruin an Atheist's day than by telling them God doesn't like them... lol?


    No wonder you guys post so much here in promotion and defense of the Quran, Allah rewards you for your posts! ;) Talk about having its perks!
    Reseg, Oct 10, 2009 IP
  5. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

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    #5
    So, Lets see if i'm a good quran student.

    Basically, you say that the most important word of [5:51] is the word certain, artificially introduced in the inaccurate translation and hence put in square brackets. God thought to himself..."hmmm... how will I phrase that you should not make friends only with CERTAIN jews and Christians and not all of them as a rule?...hmmm... let me think...hmmm... I know!!!! lets keep the important word CERTAIN out, but maintain the Jews and the Christians in place!!"

    Then you say, that god has some kind of an Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder? or else why would he write the beginning of the sentence in one chapter and the end of the sentence in another chapter of his "book"?

    A better, more accurate translation is of course (these are the first two results I got for the search of "translation of quran" in google:
    [60:8] is of course also mistranslated from the website you posted, a website whose goal is to convert people into Islam.

    The word "certain" does not appear in the quran. It is YOUR interpretation, which has nothing to do with the spirit of the text.
    Aren't you muslims so proud that your quran never changes? I wonder what would god think of you for rewriting his "holy quran"?
    See you in hell!
    ChaosTrivia, Oct 10, 2009 IP
  6. Polite teen

    Polite teen Guest

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    #6
    O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (51)

    The proof of this need you to look at Mahmood Abbas (the so called presedent of Palistine/Israel).


    The (so called) Islamic governments who didn't support the muslims with money and force, but rather they were seeking the satisfaction of UN and US, are fit to the following:

    And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts. (52) [chapter 5]
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
    Polite teen, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  7. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

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    #7
    By this you mean also the government of Saudi Arabia?

    (you can answer by pm, I don't want you to go to jail.....)
    ChaosTrivia, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  8. eric8476

    eric8476 Active Member

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    #8
    is the "[certain]" part how the translations would be in english or your (or the source's) interpretation
    eric8476, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  9. Polite teen

    Polite teen Guest

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    #9
    Be wide minded.
    Polite teen, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  10. clade

    clade Peon

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    #10
    First of all, let's get everything straight, I'm still an Atheist.

    Sarcasm noted. Let's go back to the original post. The Quran says that Muslims can't pick and choose what they want to believe from the Quran. You can't believe one part of the Quran, and disbelieve the other when they both concern the same issue. Sadly, most Muslims do.

    [2:85] ?. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this?..

    Therefore, it's only correct if we refer to ALL of the related verses, instead of just 5:51. The word [certain] was added, hence it was put in bracket. If the source wanted to mis-translate the Quran, he would've removed the bracket and just pray that people buy it, right?

    Why not? It's like telling William Shakespeare he should've written his books differently, when you know nothing.

    OK cool.

    False, come on man, that's really low. Please at least provide the "accurate" translation then.

    FYI, the founder of the sect. of Islam(submitters), the messenger Rashad Khulafa was mudered by Muslims. He specifically asked that we do not impose our belief upon others. He also encouraged thinking for yourself, no death penalty for apostasy, no veil for woman, no segregation and is strongly against idol worship (may it be Jesus or Muhammad). If only Muslims would refer to the Quran.

    I've already explained this earlier, can't pick and choose, have to read all related verses and THEN understand, not the other way around.
    clade, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  11. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

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    #11
    I don't buy it.
    The word [certain] was artificially added. It does not belong there. You did not manage to convince me that it belongs there.

    5:51 says: do not make friends with jews and Christians. Another verse says that you should kill the disbelievers or jews or something like that. It does not say "[certain]" either. Your claim is legitimite but it doesn't make any sense.

    now with 60:8 and 60:9: what does it mean "god does not enjoin"? "god does not recommend?" how can god "recommend" something? is he god or your buddy from high school?

    But lets take it from another angle. What is your answer to the following question:

    lets assume for the moment that it is god's will that you will make friends with "good" jews and christians.
    From 60:8 and 60:9 alone it is clear that god wishes that you will befriend with CERTAIN jews and christians, not all of them. The problem is 5:51, which says exactly the opposite (a scenario which repeats in countless other occasions in the quran.. i.e. earth is flat or not....). You see, I can add [] words to the 60:8 and 60:9 instead of to adding [] to 5:51 and by thus switch the meaning upside down. How will you convince me that u're right and I'm wrong? by the most basic logic: unless you posses godly powers that I dont: you will not be able to seriously argue that you are right and I am wrong.

    My point is:
    If 60:8 and 60:9 is god's will, what do we learn from 5:51? what was the point in adding this verse?
    From your (wrong) interpretation of the quran, 5:51 is obsolete, and can be erased. Is that so? if not, what extra information can one learn from 5:51?
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
    ChaosTrivia, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  12. Danielregwan

    Danielregwan Active Member

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    #12
    everyone interprets the bible according to their own world view
    Danielregwan, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  13. clade

    clade Peon

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    #13
    Which is why I said it WAS added. I was agreeing with you on the issue, not disagreeing. :confused:

    I understand, it's legitimate, but it doesn't make any sense to you, specifically.

    He spoke through Muhammad the last and final prophet.

    This is a completely legit claim. This is the main reason why Rashad Khulafa wanted Muslims to read Quran for themselves instead of listening to "clerics" and "scholars".

    You seem like a pretty nice guy. Let's say you've read all of the Quran, and you seem to be having problems with how you should mingle with Christian and Jews according to the Quran. You found 3 verses that talks about it. One is a negative, and the other two seem to be positive contradicting the negative one.

    You then proceed by analyzing the negative verse, and discovered that the actual paragraph (sura') was talking about a specific event that happend a long long time ago.

    You also know that God is most merciful, most loving.

    What would you conclude? Kill all the Jews and Christians that exist today? How would you come up with that preposterous conclusion really?

    You could learn that at some point in time during war, the Jews and Christians teamed up against Muslims, and there were hypocrites amongst Muslims, as mentioned below.

    "O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)

    Also note that God used "the Jews" and "the Christians" instead of just "Jews" and "Christians" to show that he referred to a specific group of Jews and Christians. The verse was not a general prescription.

    As a proof, you can read on further in the same Sura'. Quoted below:
    "O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Quran 5:57-58)

    God mentioned specifically what kind attributes these specific groups of people had, so it couldn't have been a general statement.

    These are people that took Islam as a mockery and a joke, not just any Christian or Jew.

    I remain an un-believer at this point, still. There are still a lot of loopholes, but as a person that lives in the 21st centure, I would prefer that Muslims interpret Quran according to their own world-view. Not others.
    clade, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  14. Vebtools

    Vebtools Well-Known Member

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    #14
    Jazak Allah Khair

    Wonderful sharing
    Vebtools, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  15. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

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    #15
    I had a look at the Ayas before and after 5:51. I don't see any "specific event" in the text. Do you? What event?
    Here is what wikipedia says about surah 5:
    So, what event?



    But, here is something really exciting I found nearby:
    [5:38] As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
    What do you think about that? where does the [] fit in here, or maybe it doesn't? :)

    You shocked me when you called yourself an "unbeliever", which is the lowest life form according to the quran, and still defend the quran.

    p.s. If you would write a book to guide your subjects, would you start every paragraph with the words "z.z.y. in the name of alwiser, the most gracious, the most merciful" ?
    ChaosTrivia, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  16. clade

    clade Peon

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    #16
    Isa's and Moses' missions, as well as distortion of their messages by Jews and Christians - as explained by Wiki.

    Like I said before, you can't pick one verse of the Quran and disregard the others when they both talk about the same issue.

    Here's a Submitters view on the issue, by Rashad Khulafa I think. (source: http://www.quranalone.com/the-quran/appendices/appendix-37.php)

    Hope you find clarity.

    The purpose of me posting this threads is to find the truth. Not some divine praise.

    Sure?
    clade, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  17. browntwn

    browntwn Prominent Member

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    #17
    It hardly matters what the guy who wrote the Quran actually meant. Many Muslims are peaceful friends with Christians and Jews. Other Muslims treat Jews and Christians as enemies. The fight is within Islam to find itself. Maybe peaceful Islam wins, maybe not. So far, it seems like violent extremist Muslims seem to be winning or at least they are a lot more vocal.

    p.s. Alwiser sounds like the name of an Islamic beer.
    browntwn, Oct 11, 2009 IP
  18. clade

    clade Peon

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    #18
    I will make Alcohol legal with my Quranic word-play!!! lol

    What does America and the terorrists have in common?

    The sweet taste of Alwiser lite.
    clade, Oct 12, 2009 IP
  19. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

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    #19
    Well yea this can go on for ever because: we are both right.
    This is the whole point about holy books: they say absolutely nothing.

    The real question is not what the quran says ( = nothing), but what most muslims think it says.

    /////////////////////////////////////////////

    Here are muslims who do not concur with your view about the the quran's attitude toward the jews.
    this guy
    "This excellent question leads me to talk about the jewish nature, as it appear in the holy quran and the sunnah: .........."
    This was broadcast on the no. 1 channel of the Palestinian authority. watch live. The translation is exact.

    this girl
    Host: our guest is a muslims girl, a REAL muslim girl.
    .......
    Host: Why don't you like the jews?
    3.5 y/o girl: because their are sons of apes and pigs.
    Host: Who said that the jews are sons of apes and pigs?
    3.5 y/o girl: our god in the quran.
    Host: He said that in the quran, this is true.
    broadcast on Irqraa TV, broadcasting from saudi-arabia to the whole arab world. The translation is exact.

    This guy
    "Our hate to the jews is not because .......... (this and this and this and this).....: we hate them, first and foremost, because of their enmity towards allah"
    This was broadcast on alrahma channel (alrahma = mercy in arabic....), broadcasting from Egypt to the whole arab world. The translation is exact.

    /////////////////////////////////////////////

    There are hundreds if not thousands of similar videos on you tube showing muslims who explicitly mention the quran (and not "politics") as a motivation and justification for their hate of jews and the west.

    The only important question is: are your views presented in the opening post minority or majority views (when taking ALL of the Muslims of the world)?
    Since so many TV broadcasts that are a matter of common everyday life in the countries of Islam (and the lack of any condemnation) leaves me with no other option but to conclude that your views on the tolerant approach of Islam to the jews is by far the opinion of the minority. Dont forget that your probably nice and moderate muslim community is NOT a representative of the world's muslims.

    I would even go a step further and say that for most muslims of the world, as indirectly suggested in the Saudi broadcast, if you take many jews and Christians to be your friends, you are not a "true muslim".
    ChaosTrivia, Oct 12, 2009 IP
  20. clade

    clade Peon

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    #20
    What can I say? They have been diverted by Satan and resulted to idol-worship (they worship Muhammad) and for them, is the promise of eternal damnation. Of course, the final judgment is for God to do so I'll leave it as that.

    Good luck Muslims!
    clade, Oct 12, 2009 IP