1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Bailed out GM and Union Workers Bring back jobs and growth to Tennessee

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by earlpearl, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. #1
    In the midst of endless attacks about things that don't work within the US economy here is something that is working withGeneral Motors and the auto Union bringing 700 jobs to Tennessee

    Of all the cr@ppy things that happened with the recession, the slow the recovery, the banks getting bailed out and then shutting the lending door on US businesses and inappropriately foreclosing on homes....I think results first at GM and more recently at Chrysler are showing things that worked with the bailouts
     
    earlpearl, Nov 21, 2011 IP
  2. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #2
    Really? You think 700 jobs for tens of billions of dollars in bailout money is a good thing? It would have cost less to give those 700 people money.

    GM and Chrysler show everything that is wrong with government involvement and using tax payers money to bailout big business.

    Take a look at Ford. They took NO bailout money, no loans, etc.

    "Ford has tentative deal with UAW, includes 5,750 new jobs "
    and that's just one instance of the jobs Ford created WITHOUT government bailouts.
    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/10/ford-has-tentative-new-deal-with-uaw/1
     
    Mia, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  3. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    149
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    155
    #3
    When the bailouts of GM and Chrysler were first acted on by the Bush administration and then followed through by the Obama administration they received endless political attacks from the Right Wing extremists. It was a lot of money and as Bush himself said (I'm paraphrasing) It was distasteful and politically didn't correspond to his thinking. The bailouts of the auto industry took huge political hits from the Right yet the two different administrations plowed ahead. While the political attacks were brutal....here was what was unsaid for why they moved forward through 2 administrations:

    1. The overwhelming largest component of National GDP is consumption
    2. The far and away largest component of Consumption are Car Sales.
    3. The recession, caused by financial institutions and real estate ripped the heart and soul out of car sales and specifically new vehicle sales including cars and trucks.
    4. Four 9 straight years from 1999-2007 the US experienced new car sales that ranged in volume from 16.4/year at the low end to 17.8/year at the high end. Lots of sales. The lowest total was in 2007 as the fincial impact of the housing recession started to hit.
    5. In 2008 new car sales in the US dropped to 13.5 million....an incredible low that hadn't been hit since 1992 (a recession year)
    6. In 2009 new car sales hit an incredible low of 10.6 million something the US hadn't experienced since 1982 (a recession year)....and with so many more people.....if you want to get the impact of this recession take a look at new car sales!!!!
    7. Last year in 2010 new car (car/truck) sales hit 11.7 million....growth from the low of 2010 but so dramatically below where it was...its a function of the crappy economy
    8. This year we are on a pace for about 12. something million.....slow growth from the bottom of the recession but way below where we were from 1999-2007. Way way below.

    Source: http://wardsauto.com/keydata/historical/UsaSa01summary/

    Before deciding to invest in the auto industry the 2 administrations looked at a lot of hard data including reports from sides with political agendas. Some of the dire reports facing both administrations included the following and its aggregate impact on the economy:

    Claims that failure would be harmful to economy
    The auto industry is a key component of the U.S. economy. Economists used 2007-2008 data to build estimates of what a shutdown would cost in summer 2008, in order to set benchmarks to help policy makers understand the impact of bankruptcies. Such estimates were widely discussed among policy makers in late 2008.[41] Closing the Big Three would mean loss of 240,000 very highly-paid jobs at the Big Three,[42] a loss of 980,000 highly-paid jobs at the suppliers and local dealers, plus the loss of 1.7 million additional jobs throughout the economy—a total loss of 3 million jobs.
    Estimates were that a Big Three shutdown would cause a decline in personal income of $151 billion the first year, and $398 billion over three years. The federal, state and local governments would lose tax revenue, and instead spend on welfare programs a total of $156 billion over three years.[43]
    Economist David Wyss of S&P has posited that if GM and Chrysler disappear, there could be an increase of about 1 million imported cars every year, which would remove about $25 billion from the U.S. economy. That would reduce GDP by 0.2 percentage points annually—excluding the impact of lost jobs (higher unemployment) and wages.[44]


    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect...tomotive_industry_crisis_on_the_United_States

    That is friggin scary to either administration trying to keep the collapsing economy from going into a monstrous depression!!!!

    Then there is the issue of only 1 manufacturer, Ford, or supporting multiple manufacturers.

    If you look at the nations that are the most significant among auto manufacturers in the world you'll see the US, Germany, Japan, France, etc.....all with multiple manufacturers....all with heavy investment and competitive characters that spur new growth. Leaving one manufacturer would be scary for the long term growth of the industry to continue to compete.

    All in all the 2 administrations decided step by step to bail out the 2 auto manufacturers. Now GM and Chrysler are running profits, new auto sales within the US are slowly growing....but way behind where they were in the 9 year period before the recession....and really 19 years behind where it was before the bottom domestic sales numbers from 1992.

    If you want to look at two industries that got ripped apart by the recession in terms of every way you can measure them look at auto sales and look at construction.

    So the Fed govt put money into the two businesses. Now GM and Chrysler are showing financial results far better than pre recession. They are growing. All three US auto manufacturers have restructured deals with the auto unions, all three are seeing benefits from marginal increases in overall new car sales, all 3 are slowly adding employees, and all 3 are coming up with a variety of new products that spur competition, investment and growth.

    Very good move in the midst of the most horrendous recessionary environment facing the nation.
     
    earlpearl, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  4. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #4
    Hogwash. The auto bailouts have been a disaster.
     
    Mia, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  5. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    149
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    155
    #5
    Hm before the bailouts there was a lot of analysis, thought and more analysis. Then first Bush and later Obama poured a lot of money into it. Turnarounds, profitability, and hiring are occurring.

    Versus...the Rush Limbaugh styled no thinking no data, no information just Right Wing opinions based on politics and a total lack of concern for possibly causing fallout of another million to a couple of million lost jobs.

    I believe in thinking!!!
     
    earlpearl, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  6. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #6
    The way I remember it, a democrat controlled congress was the architect of both bailout rounds.

    I don't need to listen to the radio, tv, or drink kool-aid earl. I lived it. I remember it. That said, I think for myself.
     
    Mia, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  7. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    149
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    155
    #7
    I much prefer facts and details to the memory of someone with a very slanted perspective and a radical political perspective:

    (from Wikipedia)

    Bush approves bailout
    On December 19, George W. Bush announced that he had approved the bailout plan, which would give loans of $17.4 billion to U.S. automakers GM and Chrysler, stating that under present economic conditions, "allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action."[77] Bush provided $13.4 billion now, with another $4 billion available in February 2009. Funds would be made available from the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008.[78] General Motors would get $9.4 billion, and Chrysler $4 billion.[79]
    However, it had been argued that the Treasury lacked the statutory authority to direct TARP funds to the automakers, since TARP is limited to “financial institutions" under Section 102 of the TARP. It was also argued that providing TARP funds to automaker's financing operations, such as GMAC, runs counter to the intent of Congress for limiting TARP funds to true "financial institutions".[80] On December 19, 2008, President Bush used his executive authority to declare that TARP funds may be spent on any program he personally deems necessary to avert the financial crisis, and declared Section 102 to be nonbinding
     
    earlpearl, Nov 22, 2011 IP
  8. abdobasha2004

    abdobasha2004 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Likes Received:
    30
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #8
    The US dollar is going up slowly
    and there are many optimistic signs out there
     
    abdobasha2004, Nov 23, 2011 IP
  9. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #9
    ^ Koolaid

    Lived it; Reality
     
    Mia, Nov 23, 2011 IP
  10. thesickearth

    thesickearth Active Member

    Messages:
    1,188
    Likes Received:
    14
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    53
    #10
    all bailouts are criminal
     
    thesickearth, Nov 26, 2011 IP
  11. gworld

    gworld Notable Member

    Messages:
    11,333
    Likes Received:
    614
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    260
    #11
    [​IMG]

    Obviously with very little success.
     
    gworld, Dec 9, 2011 IP
  12. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,970
    Likes Received:
    204
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #12
    Facts. They are pesky things:


    [​IMG]


    Note that this article was written in May. Since then GM share price has dropped by 40%.



    http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...evaluation-gm-bailout-jim-manzi]More analysis

    700 jobs. LoL.
     
    Obamanation, Dec 9, 2011 IP
  13. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #13
    Well look who's back and on his way to another long ban...

    Give it your best shot.
     
    Mia, Dec 9, 2011 IP
  14. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    149
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    155
    #14
    And still more job growth in the US in the Automotive sector: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203806504577177050015873424.html
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57351130/u.s-auto-industry-to-post-a-second-strong-year/

    and this information about job growth in the industry is truly outstanding:

    ....and of course the Right Wing Politicians were screaming...."don't put a dime into the industry" just a short while ago.

    ...all around the investment in the US auto industry might prove to be one of the best investments made by the US govt in decades.
     
    earlpearl, Jan 24, 2012 IP
  15. Rebecca

    Rebecca Notable Member

    Messages:
    5,434
    Likes Received:
    331
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Articles:
    19
    #15
    @EarlPearl

    That's great news!! :)
     
    Rebecca, Jan 24, 2012 IP
  16. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,970
    Likes Received:
    204
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #16
    Now that is comedy!


    In other words, Chevy cranks out a car that falls 30% short of it's 2011 sales target, shows declining demand based on the fact it catches on fire in the laboratory, yet they are hiring 2500 new people to build it! Why don't we just be honest about it. The US Taxpayers are hiring 2500 new people via eco subsidies to build a car nobody wants.

    Regarding Ford's success, that surely must be attributable to the Obama admin!

    I would refer you to Ford, once again. Watching Obama's state of the Union, like him, you are clearly believe no business can succeed without the help of government. It is that mentality we will be voting out this year.
     
    Obamanation, Jan 25, 2012 IP
  17. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #17
    If you gave my company a billion or so dollars, I'd have tremendous job growth too.

    This job growth in the auto industry, and profits that the president is talking about are completely fabricated. They are not NET numbers.

    We had a fantastic month last November and brought on about 130 new dedicated servers. But we lost 52 due to cancellations, no pay, etc.

    So I guess I could tell an investor that my company had an increase of 130 units, right? Or was it 78?

    Given Obama has never worked a day in his life. Given he has never even made change at a McDonalds, or run a business... It's fairly easy to see that he has no concept what the real numbers mean.

    Ford took NO bail out money and actually did increase net sales and employment. And they did so while shedding debt without additional financing.

    So is Chrysler and GM really doing all that well, or better?

    I'd like Mr. Obama to come to my state and visit Kenosha and our Chrysler plant.

    Then I would like him to come visit the GM plant in Janesville.

    Then I would like him to explain to me where those job increases are and where all my and other tax payers money really went in that bail out.
     
    Mia, Jan 25, 2012 IP
  18. gworld

    gworld Notable Member

    Messages:
    11,333
    Likes Received:
    614
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    260
    #18
    [​IMG]

    I agree, you will be needing a lot more space. :)
     
    gworld, Jan 25, 2012 IP
  19. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

    Messages:
    23,656
    Likes Received:
    1,157
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    440
    #19

    Julie always posts right around the time they let grade school kids out of school. Might be onto something here. What are we now, 11 or 12?
     
    Mia, Jan 25, 2012 IP
  20. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    72
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    130
    #20
    I never knew Jon Stewart and Robert Reich were a Right Wing extremists.

    Remember Jon Stewart's impassioned plea for no auto bailouts? Clinton's Secretary of Labor Robert Reich was the guest. Reich commented that "We have Socialism for the rich, and Capitalism for everyone else". As I recall, Stewart's famous quote was "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell".

    "The entire point of capitalism is creative destruction: Old firms die as new innovators come along. However, modern firms lock up much of their profits in a war chest designed to keep them from dying. This is pure economic loss. It's bad for shareholders"
    Karl Smith, http://seekingalpha.com/article/246593-how-long-can-microsoft-s-burning-millions-continue

    Remember Ross Perot? He pointed out 20 years ago that GM was going downhill. So rather than save their company, GM's board paid off Perot to shut up! Remember?

    General Motors was and still is a badly run company. I was there. Each job the government kept alive at GM resulted in a loss of 2.5 jobs elsewhere in the USA. Had the government let GM go out of business, unemployment would be lower. And remember, I'm the one who predicted GM would demand a bailout two months before they demanded the bailout!

    Meanwhile Ford, who built better cars and beat GM in the marketplace, was punished for making better cars, while GM was rewarded for running their company badly.
     
    Corwin, Jan 31, 2012 IP